Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[RailBaronYarr]

Ok, unless I'm missing something, the whole point of posting the second document was to highlight that they did indeed run trains on the same track, at all hours of the day:

A major adjustment to the River LINE waiver was obtained from FRA using Extended Temporal Separation (ETS), which
was applied to two miles of the River LINE, enabling passenger and freight trains to share track, even during the daytime
hours of passenger operation. ETS involves a method of employing vital signal logic to integrate actions of two or
more consecutive railroad interlockings covering an extended section of railroad, so that separate passenger and freight
routes may be called and locked.

...

With limited available rights-of-way for expansion of transit services, it is desirable to use existing corridors to costeffectively
advance projects involving non-compliant LRT and FRA-compliant freight and passenger operations. This
research developed a template for temporal separation that consists of technology and operating practices that
would safely separate the modes in compliance with FRA regulations. This advanced approach to temporal separation
has the potential to enable the compliant and non-compliant modes to operate frequently and within minutes of
each other, making efficient use of the right-of-way while optimally serving its markets.

The question is if there is enough space to do this in the narrow portion to still 1) preserve bicycle/walking facilities and 2) not take any townhomes. My guess looking at the existing condition is that it would be very tight, and a small amount of ROW may need to be purchased from homeowners, but that their houses could likely stay. Am I crazy?

[Tcmetro]

The RIVER Line runs every 30 minutes. The Kenilworth Corridor will have trains every 10 minutes running at 45-55 mph and freights that run at 10 mph.

The RIVER Line is also a diesel light rail line. The freights could have clearance issues with the overhead wires.

[RailBaronYarr]

I would guess that an at-grade LRT line running through back yards and next to bikes/walkers will run more at 30-40 mph. As for the freight, even at 10 mph, passing through the conflict zone (where tracks would be shared) would take 6 minutes (although due to length of train, total time would be longer, obviously). How many freight trains run per day, how many will run per day in the future, what times will they run (ie what % will run when headways are greater than 10 minutes), etc etc. I don't doubt that technical issues like catenary line clearance might be an issue. I'm asking if these questions were asked or really evaluated. If we're nixing a tunnel or purchasing townhomes, we've got a large budget to work with to solve some of those problems...

[mulad]

The Blue Line of the UTA TRAX system in Salt Lake City has overhead lines and has freight operations run overnight. So the clearance is doable, but certainly the wires would be much higher than what we normally see around here. I'm not sure what they do about platforms, though. I wonder what the maximum catenary height is along our own Blue Line -- There are some spots where it's pretty high up, but I can't remember where they are off the top of my head.

But if I had to do this all over again, I'd double-track the freight line, possibly with extra passenger sidings here and there (possibly at stations where trains have to stop anyway) and just run the corridor as a European-style "commuter" service with 15-30 minute frequency all day, and put LRT or streetcar down another nearby street (or streets) such as Minnetonka Boulevard or Excelsior Boulevard, or maybe even the old Como-Harriet streetcar route (as close as possible without tearing down (m)any structures).

[woofner]

Anyone else notice that a couple of actual facts have come out regarding the Kenilworth Kontroversy in the last couple days?

First, Peter McLaughlin has been dropping some SWLRT related fact bombs on twitter, including an Enola Gay in the form of the '97 tax bill, which explicitly ties the cleanup of Golden Auto to the reroute of TC&W trains from Midtown:

384.34 Subd. 6. [PRIORITIES.] The first priority for the use of
384.35 the the environmental response fund created in this section is
384.36 to clean up the site located in the city of St. Louis Park known
385.1 as NL Industries/Tara Corporation/Golden Auto, EPA I.D. No.
385.2 MND097891634 and to provide adequate right-of-way for a portion
385.3 of the rail line to replace the 29th street line in the city of
385.4 Minneapolis, including making rail improvements, changing the
385.5 curve of the railroad track and eliminating a switching
385.6 facility, and improving the land for economic development. No
385.7 money from the environmental response fund may be expended for
385.8 remediating the site until the site has been acquired through
385.9 purchase or condemnation.

The bill also squarely assigns PM responsibility to MnDot, which they seem to have ignored with impunity:

385.14 Subd. 8. [DOT ASSISTANCE.] With respect to the site
385.15 described in subdivision 6, the commissioner of transportation
385.16 shall collaborate with the county and any affected municipality
385.17 by providing technical assistance and support in facilitating
385.18 the railroad improvement and testing at that portion of the site
385.19 to be used for the railroad improvement.

I would say that legislation is about the strongest form of promise you can make, but on the other hand, no promise is stronger than physics, and if Steve Elkins is telling the truth, it seems the blame for this fiasco does belong to Hennepin County for insisting that the world is flat:

...what no one had focused on, until the Met Council’s designers inherited the project and began detailed, three-dimensional engineering, is that freight trains cannot simultaneously negotiate undulations of these magnitudes in the horizontal, vertical and longitudinal dimensions without placing dangerous levels of stress on both their couplings and their wheels that would create an unacceptable risk of decoupling or derailment.

Under the routings envisioned when the connection was first sketched out, different sections of a single freight train traveling along this section of track would have been moving up, down, left and right — all at the same time.

[UptownSport]

Midtown is to turn south and use a bus barn. It could serve stops past Wedt lake.

Will missing the Fed timetable re-cock the DEIS- especially if tunnel wasn't included?
Alternatives analysis?


Chance they'd study routing LRT thru density and making better use of tunnels, so there's something in this for Minneapolis?

[RailBaronYarr]

...

Very good information. The Strib piece points to the end-result to work around physics being the $200m, 30 home-removing, 11 business-removing, 2-story berm issue we all know and love. It would be a legal nightmare worse than destroying 26 townhomes near Kenilworth, and far more expensive.

I hate that a 3C option with a tunnel under Nicollet Mall isn't on the table right now, and really hope this delay brings forward a re-opening of the AA without significantly delaying the project. I hate that we rely on the feds so much for timing and contribution, but that's how we are right now and wishing for an ideal funding methodology won't change anything (as a regional body, Met Council wouldn't be able to propose a $700m line that bypasses EP and Minnetonka even if they kinda sorta wanted to).

If they can figure out a way to save $100m in Kenilworth costs and get this thing built now with a really hopeful eye toward 3C option in the future (that complements, not replaces 3A), it wouldn't be the end of the world. I don't know. This whole thing is just such a mess, and I blame sprawl and federal funding for tying our hands in so many ways..

[David Greene]

Is the real issue that Kenwood residents and extremely hardcore bike advocates just don't want trains running near them?

This is mostly right. As far as I can tell the bicyclists aren't the problem. It's the CIDNA and Kenwood residents complaining about the presence of freight rail. Sharing tracks won't solve that problem.

Bicyclists probably would be a problem if the trail were relocated but it's not clear to me that they have the same political clout.

This delay is, I think, about giving Minneapolis cover to approve the line. The residents will still be mad but at least the city council can say they looked at every possible option. It is significant that Rybak is now publicly saying that the proposed SLP reroute is unworkable.

Just spitballin' here. Having LRT at-grade gives major flexibility for how the line can be used in the future. I know people like to rag on mattaudio and myself for dreaming, but if we don't spend $100M on building tunnels, it's quite possible down the line a 3C option can be built that runs out to Hopkins (or beyond) and interlines with the Green Line as envisioned today before they split and head into the Greenway (with Midtown streetcars) or up through the trail. Van White and Royalston still get re-developed and served to the SW, Uptown gets the same access as well as grade-separated rail in to downtown (and beyond, if they extend the line). Win-win for everyone?

Isn't this basicaly waht we get with the Midtown rail option? Yes, there will be transfers at West Lake and Nicollet, but the same route will be served by rail transit. Check back a few pages for where I speculate about this some. I talked a bit about extending the Midtown Corridor along the SW ROW.

[David Greene]

384.34 Subd. 6. [PRIORITIES.] The first priority for the use of
384.35 the the environmental response fund created in this section is
384.36 to clean up the site located in the city of St. Louis Park known
385.1 as NL Industries/Tara Corporation/Golden Auto, EPA I.D. No.
385.2 MND097891634 and to provide adequate right-of-way for a portion
385.3 of the rail line to replace the 29th street line in the city of
385.4 Minneapolis, including making rail improvements, changing the
385.5 curve of the railroad track and eliminating a switching
385.6 facility, and improving the land for economic development. No
385.7 money from the environmental response fund may be expended for
385.8 remediating the site until the site has been acquired through
385.9 purchase or condemnation.

This has been known to quite a few people for a while. The legislation only says the ROW must be preserrved, not the freight MUST be rerouted there.

[Nick]

Midtown is to turn south and use a bus barn. It could serve stops past Wedt lake.

Will missing the Fed timetable re-cock the DEIS- especially if tunnel wasn't included?
Alternatives analysis?


Chance they'd study routing LRT thru density and making better use of tunnels, so there's something in this for Minneapolis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_ebooks

[DFPegg]

If a thing is impossible to do why would there need to be a promise not to do it?

Yes, Nick. I thought the same, especially with this one

[Ubermoose]

This is mostly right. As far as I can tell the bicyclists aren't the problem. It's the CIDNA and Kenwood residents complaining about the presence of freight rail. Sharing tracks won't solve that problem.

.

I've heard some discussion that this really comes down to what the Kenwood residents want to have at grade; freight or lrt. If they were to successfully get freight out of the corridor, they would have to deal with lrt at grade because the tunnel is then out of the picture. So it what is the more tolerable of the two scenarios?
I guess if I was a resident I might have been arguing for Uptown alignment all along.

[RailBaronYarr]

Isn't this basicaly waht we get with the Midtown rail option? Yes, there will be transfers at West Lake and Nicollet, but the same route will be served by rail transit. Check back a few pages for where I speculate about this some. I talked a bit about extending the Midtown Corridor along the SW ROW.

Yes, I understand. We had the discussion. But at its heart, I still question the logic, and certainly if a streetcar or enhanced bus that takes nearly twice as long to go from the Greenway to downtown compared to a LRT line is the solution. I have a heart for the convenience to North Mpls residents offered by the 3A routing. Between not having to take the Blue Line, Penn aBRT, Fremont aBRT, or anything else all the way in to Nicollet to transfer (~5 minutes) and the time savings from a Royalston - SW burbs via 3A vs. Nicollet/4th -> SW burbs via 3C (~10 minutes), those folks save a good chunk of time each day. But also keep in mind this is still a very small portion of the daily ridership, an even smaller share of North Mpls residents, and low income people living in Whittier having to make 2 transfers including a slow streetcar are poorly served to SW burbs with 3A only.

That's why I'm interested in a solution that gets this thing built now without adding $100-150m to the budget and leaves open the possibility of adding 3C later down the road as a separate line that heads north up Central. But whatever, not gonna happen.

[David Greene]

I've heard some discussion that this really comes down to what the Kenwood residents want to have at grade; freight or lrt. If they were to successfully get freight out of the corridor, they would have to deal with lrt at grade because the tunnel is then out of the picture.

That's right and is one of the reasons it's important to break down the opposition into categories. Not everyone is upset about the same thing so it doesn't make sense when you try to address one complaint or another in isolation. It seems to be the case that at least the politicians have bought the argument that promises were broken and that's what's pissing people off.

And CIDNA is at least as influential as Kenwood here, if not more so.

[David Greene]

That's why I'm interested in a solution that gets this thing built now without adding $100-150m to the budget and leaves open the possibility of adding 3C later down the road as a separate line that heads north up Central. But whatever, not gonna happen.

Heck, I'd love to see a 3C service happen in conjunction with 3A. I think it's unlikely but I do see the advantages of it. I'm not sure saving $60MM by eliminating the north tunnel is really going to matter as far as getting other lines constructed or improving general bus service. Remember that that $60MM has a 27% contingency component and 50% of it is paid by the feds. It's not chump change but it's not all that many bus purchases either.

[UptownSport]

I know this is really confusing, so maybe take it in small parts and feel free to use a dictionary.

We hear 'there was no promise.' Again and again, really.

Then we heard, that at the time, it was said rail couldn't be rerouted through St Loius Park. It was 'impossible.'.

So here's where it gets really confusing- say you are told something can't be done; in this case it's rerouting a freight rail line through a city-
It follows that someone, after relating that fact, wouldn't need to promise not to do the thing that can't be done.

I know its a lot, but I'm confident you can get it if you put your mind to it!

If a thing is impossible to do why would there need to be a promise not to do it?

Yes, Nick. I thought the same, especially with this one

[DFPegg]

I know this is really confusing, so maybe take it in small parts and feel free to use a dictionary.

We hear 'there was no promise.' Again and again, really.

Then we heard, that at the time, it was said rail couldn't be rerouted through St Loius Park. It was 'impossible.'.

So here's where it gets really confusing- say you are told something can't be done; in this case it's rerouting a freight rail line through a city-
It follows that someone, after relating that fact, wouldn't need to promise not to do the thing that can't be done.

I know its a lot, but I'm confident you can get it if you put your mind to it!

If a thing is impossible to do why would there need to be a promise not to do it?

Yes, Nick. I thought the same, especially with this one

Lol. I just thought your posts can be "strangely poetic" "cryptic missives that read like Zen koans which have been dropped on a computer keyboard from a great height" (like the link mentions)

[mplsjaromir]

Nick pointing out the similarities to Uptownsport and @Horse_ebooks was brilliant.

[seanrichardryan]

http://m.startribune.com/opinion/?id=228693411&c=y

[MNdible]

Buried in this article about Higher Ed funding is an interesting quote from our erratic governor regarding bonding for SW LRT:

"If there's money beyond that, then there'll be quite a frenzy at the legislature with people with various ideas on how to use that money and I'll have ideas myself," Dayton said... He also said the current dispute over the fate of the Southwest light rail project probably means funding for that project won't be a priority in the next legislative session.