Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[UptownSport]

Letters in Star-Trib this AM on SW, one by our Mr. Greene, saying, well, what he says.
Interesting (Funny, really) the letter editor placed directly after Mr. Greene's;

http://m.startribune.com/opinion/?id=229010761&c=y

[mplsjaromir]

I like how someone can be so concerned about a community, to the point of being a condescending concern troll. Yet at the same would not live there. Plenty of real estate for sale in NoMi.

[David Greene]

I like how someone can be so concerned about a community, to the point of being a condescending concern troll. Yet at the same would not live there. Plenty of real estate for sale in NoMi.

One does not have to physically live somewhere to be concerned about it. Aren't you concerned about the health of Minneapolis? Minneapolis isn't going to be healthy as long as > 30% of residents of color in North are unemployed.

Ok whatever, sorry about responding to personal attacks but this libertarian bent of not caring about anything except what's immediately impactful to "me" is just wrong.

[RailBaronYarr]

I'm with your concern, and the fact that SWLRT unlocks jobs, particularly those that match skill/experience sets, for people living in N Mpls is a good thing. But the narrative needs to stop that it really serves those people and any other alignment doesn't, while also ignoring other negatives by missing areas with other people of color and poverty needing access to those jobs.

As discussed earlier, a Kenilworth alignment saves people of N Minneapolis ~2 minutes (assuming infrequent bus service to VW Station) to roughly 9 minutes (assuming traveling further in to downtown to xfer at a 3C alignment) - with most of the latter coming from travel time savings thanks to a route with fewer stops. Access is retained in both alignments - travel time and frequency (therefore flexibility) change convenience. A 3C alignment saves X,XXX residents in Whittier looking for the same jobs between 1 and 2 transfers to go to EP.

And we have to remember to not boil down an alignment or line discussion to any one factor. Total cost, impacts to other travel modes, impacts to homes, environmental concerns, and yes: the travel options of affluent white people along with rich suburban kids attending the U must also be considered (among a ton of other factors).

[twincitizen]

Hey all, I moved the discussion about Southwest Corridor bus route changes to a separate topic: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1647

It may seem silly now, but in the coming years, if this thing gets funded and built, the bus route changes should spur a lively discussion, just as they did with Central Corridor.

[David Greene]

As discussed earlier, a Kenilworth alignment saves people of N Minneapolis ~2 minutes (assuming infrequent bus service to VW Station) to roughly 9 minutes (assuming traveling further in to downtown to xfer at a 3C alignment) - with most of the latter coming from travel time savings thanks to a route with fewer stops. Access is retained in both alignments - travel time and frequency (therefore flexibility) change convenience. A 3C alignment saves X,XXX residents in Whittier looking for the same jobs between 1 and 2 transfers to go to EP.

This analysis is incomplete. North does not have reasonable transit access to the southwest suburbs. SW LRT 3A will bring it. Whittier will have such access regardless of the SW LRT aignment. An additional transfer is not a huge burden given that we'll open up new access to North residents.

Now, I totally agree that for SW LRT to serve North decently, we will need a good feeder bus system. But without the Kenilworth alignment, there is no way SW LRT can reasonably serve people from North. A trip downtown and back out is not reasonable.

3C also does not have the development potential that 3A has. Sure, there's some speculation there but given that Ryan already has preliminary designs, I think it's a good bet we'll seem something at Van White. Royalston should also see some development simply because it's in the North Loop and that's a hot area. Penn I am less sure about but residents there showed me some interesting sites on top of the bluff that might be viable. AFAIK there are no concrete plans however.

The other missing piece is the Midtown streetcar. 3A + a streetcar will serve other low-income communities in south Minneapolis much better than 3C would. I'm thinking of places like Powderhorn Park and the three Phillips. We've got to think in terms of a system, not single lines.

We can go back and forth on this forever. I think we can all agree that there are benefits and drawbacks to both alignments. We were doing so well at agreeing to disagree.

I was mainly responding to the blatant personal attack and ridiculous assertion that we can only care about neighborhoods we actually live in. That is a recipe for a dying city.

[RailBaronYarr]

This analysis is incomplete. North does not have reasonable transit access to the southwest suburbs. SW LRT 3A will bring it. Whittier will have such access regardless of the SW LRT aignment. An additional transfer is not a huge burden given that we'll open up new access to North residents.

SWLRT 3C will also bring it. N Mpls residents will be making a transfer, regardless of the routing. You need to acknowledge that. You're willing to say that Whittier and other S Mpls neighborhoods will have access to SWLRT regardless of routing because they can make a transfer by bus or future Midtown streetcar, but ignore the same will be true for N Mpls residents in a 3C world. All you have to do is change your argument to say 3A gives faster access to jobs for Northsiders. You're painting an unfair picture just like any other person with agenda to make it sound like a 3C world means N Mpls residents don't have access. That's my point.

You also completely ignored the image I showed highlighting the people in blue who would not be served by 3A + Greenway streetcar, and ignore added transfer times for the people living along 29th who would have to transfer at W Lake (adding 5+ minutes). You also ignore that a 3C alignment absolutely doesn't preclude a Greenway streetcar (in fact, it makes it far more viable as about 1/3 the double track length and stations are already built, making extension east that much cheaper).

I am with you that development in under-utilized areas of Minneapolis is a good thing. I'm not on the same page for how guaranteed said development is, and my natural inclination is to follow where jobs and housing are already booming with transit to provide options and relief to existing systems along with travel time improvements.

[David Greene]

SWLRT 3C will also bring it. N Mpls residents will be making a transfer, regardless of the routing.

Going downtown from North to get to the southwest suburbs is not reasonable. Imagine if you live over on Penn.

You also completely ignored the image I showed highlighting the people in blue who would not be served by 3A + Greenway streetcar, and ignore added transfer times for the people living along 29th who would have to transfer at W Lake (adding 5+ minutes). You also ignore that a 3C alignment absolutely doesn't preclude a Greenway streetcar (in fact, it makes it far more viable as about 1/3 the double track length and stations are already built, making extension east that much cheaper).

I think that a Greenway streetcar is much less likely with a 3C routing and a lot of people seem to agree.

There are plenty of N-S buses that Whitter residents can use to get to the Greenway. There will be a streetcar too. You even acknowledged that implicitly by stating the number of transfers. I'm not sure where 5+ minutes at West Lake comes from as the expected wait time should be about 3.5 minutes (assuming 7 minute peak headway). But in any case, this small delay is much less burdensome than what some North residents would have to do to get to 3C.

I'm looking at this not from an absolute fastest trip perspective but whether the trip is doable in some reasonable amount of time. No matter which alignment is chosen some population is going to have an increased trip time over what they would have had otherwise. However, I am arguing that for a good portion of North Minneapolis, that additional time will be FAR greater than it will be for Whittier residents. Whittier has pretty good transit. North, not so much.

I am with you that development in under-utilized areas of Minneapolis is a good thing. I'm not on the same page for how guaranteed said development is, and my natural inclination is to follow where jobs and housing are already booming with transit to provide options and relief to existing systems along with travel time improvements.

I look at it the other way. If a place is booming with jobs and transit then we should concentrate our equity efforts elsewhere. Uptown/3C/Whittier already has good transit access (yes, it could be better) and the SW LRT reports bear that out.

[Tcmetro]

North Minneapolis also has good transit options. It has 2 high frequency lines (Penn, Emerson) with a 3rd planned (Lyndale), as well as three planned Arterial BRT lines (Penn, Emerson, Broadway). What is lacking is access to the SW suburbs, which is also lacking from S Mpls.

A better argument would be for LRT serving Broadway Avenue, which would place the vast majority of the densest Northside neighborhoods within walking distance of train service. Northsiders would be better served (more people could walk to the train rather than take a bus and transfer) and would have quicker service to Downtown and South Minneapolis (easily the biggest destination for transit riders in North), the University and St. Paul. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there are more transit riders going from Near North to the Midtown area than there are going from Near North to the SW Suburban job corridors.

I also wouldn't discount the idea of the Midtown Streetcar not happening if 3C is built. The length of additional construction is only 2 miles, which is extremely low cost/high benefit project.

[RailBaronYarr]

Going downtown from North to get to the southwest suburbs is not reasonable. Imagine if you live over on Penn.

I've already gone over this with existing transit time data. People living on Penn have the 19 that comes right down 8th where a 3C stop would be. People along Fremont/Emerson have the 5 that does the same. Are both lines ones that could use heft improvement? Heck yes. Is that any different than the 18 along Nicollet? Aren't all 3 slated as high-importance corridors for improvement (plus Bottineau and a Broadway streetcar to boot)? But in terms of difference of commute times for people from North Minneapolis heading SW, going in to downtown for a 3C compared to getting off at 55 and walking 1/4 mile to Royalston saves them 9 minutes when factoring transfer times.

This is where opinion comes in to play. Is the 9 minute savings of those folks' travel times "unreasonable"? Here's the equation:

Northside time savings + potential re-development ?> Time savings of Whittier residents (3.75 minutes if served by Greenway streetcar, 8.75 minutes for the folks in blue) + continued agglomeration benefits by serving Uptown <-> Downtown

Just like you don't want people in N Mpls left out of the discussion when evaluating positives and negatives, you can't ignore the strife (even if you find it marginal) for Whittier residents in the alternate universe. You also can't continue to act like current and future buses serving N Mpls don't reach downtown 3-5 minutes after passing by Royalston stops. Lay it all out there.

[mplsjaromir]

My point was I find rich for people to lecture others about helping struggling communities. Yet when one can make a big impact, by becoming a direct stakeholder in the community, they decide to take the safe route. Living in the community you advocate for would more helpful than any number of letters written or meetings attended.

My motives are not libertarian, there about being more than lip service. I want to see equality as much as the next person, but supercilious statements hurt one's position more than it helps.

[David Greene]

You also can't continue to act like current and future buses serving N Mpls don't reach downtown 3-5 minutes after passing by Royalston stops. Lay it all out there.

But with 3A not everyone would go through Royalston. That is where I see the larger savings. aBRT/enhanced bus on Penn that goes to the Penn station could be a big win over heading downtown.

I totally understand what you're saying. I agree that 3A won't be a large improvement for *all* of North, but it will be a significant improvement for a significant piece of North.

Believe me, I and others are thinking of equity far beyond just North Minneapolis. That is why I keep mentioning the many environmental justice communities all along the Southwest corridor. Then there's St. Paul which is a whole different can of worms, not to mention suburbs that have zero transit service.

We have limited resources so we try to apply them where we think we can make the most improvement the most quickly.

[David Greene]

My point was I find rich for people to lecture others about helping struggling communities. Yet when one can make a big impact, by becoming a direct stakeholder in the community, they decide to take the safe route. Living in the community you advocate for would more helpful than any number of letters written or meetings attended.

My motives are not libertarian, there about being more than lip service.

You have no idea what I am involved in or what I have done. If you did you wouldn't make this kind of statement. One can make large impacts in a community without living there as long as one works with that community in relationship. No one person or small group of people can make significant impacts. It takes *lots and lots* of people working together. Margaret Mead was wrong.

There are many struggling communities. One cannot simultaneously live in all of them.

[David Greene]

A better argument would be for LRT serving Broadway Avenue, which would place the vast majority of the densest Northside neighborhoods within walking distance of train service. Northsiders would be better served (more people could walk to the train rather than take a bus and transfer) and would have quicker service to Downtown and South Minneapolis (easily the biggest destination for transit riders in North), the University and St. Paul. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there are more transit riders going from Near North to the Midtown area than there are going from Near North to the SW Suburban job corridors.

I see it as both-and, not one or the other. I agree that currently, probably more Near North residents go to Midtown than SW suburbs. That's because as you said there's currently no way to get to the latter. And you are also correct that there's no way to get there from South Minneapolis either. SW LRT 3A closes both those gaps. Yes, 3C would be an improvement over the current situation for North but not as much as an improvement as 3A will be.

I also wouldn't discount the idea of the Midtown Streetcar not happening if 3C is built. The length of additional construction is only 2 miles, which is extremely low cost/high benefit project.

I'm going primarily on what I have heard from others. There are a few reasons I could think of why a Midtown streetcar is less likely with 3C, but the primary one is political. Those with the most influence live where 3C would run. They would have little need for a Midtown streetcar and probably wouldn't push for it very hard, whereas with 3A those same people are practically beating down Metro Transit for it.

[UptownSport]

****** IF there are all kinds of people with skills and experience (but without cars) in North, MetroTransit needs to run lines NOW ******

My guess is people in North do what people in other areas do, drive or migrate to more convenient areas, and these claims are simple propaganda to ram the line through.

[alleycat]

But with 3A not everyone would go through Royalston. That is where I see the larger savings. aBRT/enhanced bus on Penn that goes to the Penn station could be a big win over heading downtown.

I totally understand what you're saying. I agree that 3A won't be a large improvement for *all* of North, but it will be a significant improvement for a significant piece of North.

Had a Metro Transit representative present the Penn aBRT alongside the Penn Avenue Community Works team at the JACC annual meeting tonight. Clearly stated that it would run along current route 19. That means the aBRT will turn at Olson/55 just as it does today. It'll make little sense to divert towards either northside SWLRT stops without inconveniencing the majority of riders heading toward downtown. She left right away so I didn't get to ask her how the aBRTs/streetcar will interline with both LRT lines up here.

[orangevening]

What are the chances that funding (from some source, not necessairly from the swrlt budget) for the midtown streetcar is part of the deal for Mpls agreement on the shallow tunnel?. Seattle did something like this when a first hill lrt station was cancelled and a Broadway streetcar was built. Seems like there is some smoke on the Midtown streetcar (planning at what not) but no fire.

[David Greene]

Had a Metro Transit representative present the Penn aBRT alongside the Penn Avenue Community Works team at the JACC annual meeting tonight. Clearly stated that it would run along current route 19. That means the aBRT will turn at Olson/55 just as it does today. It'll make little sense to divert towards either northside SWLRT stops without inconveniencing the majority of riders heading toward downtown. She left right away so I didn't get to ask her how the aBRTs/streetcar will interline with both LRT lines up here.

That is very unfortunate. I had not heard that before, so thanks for the heads-up. We'll keep a close eye on bus realignment.

[David Greene]

What are the chances that funding (from some source, not necessairly from the swrlt budget) for the midtown streetcar is part of the deal for Mpls agreement on the shallow tunnel?. Seattle did something like this when a first hill lrt station was cancelled and a Broadway streetcar was built. Seems like there is some smoke on the Midtown streetcar (planning at what not) but no fire.

Back when 3A was chosen, the politicians all but promised (there's that word again!) a Midtown streetcar. I think it is significant that the planning for the Midtown corridor is being done by Metro Transit, unlike with Nicollet.

[RailBaronYarr]

Do we know what the Midtown Greenway streetcar project is estimated to cost? I ask because a 3C alignment would build about 70% of the trackwork (streetcar proposes all double in the 3C areas), 2 stations (Hennepin & Lyndale, although overbuilt for a streetcar), about half the major bridge re-dos/retaining walls, and about 80% of trail re-construction.

Tough to say for sure, but napkin math says building a 3C SWLRT cuts a streetcar project's cost by 40% (even though it builds perhaps >50% of the infrastructure, buying LRVs for the line itself is still a significant part of the capital budget). This needs to be taken in to consideration by the Met Council when doing a future system cost/benefit analysis.