Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[MNdible]

So, I've asked the questions before, but Woofner's post makes me think it should be asked again.

How does Minneapolis/Hodges save face here? How does Hennepin County/Met Council help them do that?

If this is all about politics (which I think we've mostly agreed it is), then the optics are important.

It's one thing to say that Minneapolis/Hodges should be gracious losers, and I agree that Minneapolis will get enormous benefit out of this line. But it's very clear at this point that, at least in this head-to-head with SLP, Minneapolis is going to be the loser. Hodges is right: in this little pissing match, SLP gets everything it wanted, and Minneapolis gets stuck with the freight line that was supposed to be in SLP.

So, if you're a gracious winner, or if you're the over-seer of the project, what do you do to make Minneapolis feel like they aren't just getting the shaft?

[MNdible]

Also, I thought this section of Hodges response was convincing (I know she's not the first person to raise it):

It’s also a cost-versus-value question. There are costs associated here. But the tunnels add no value to this LRT project. They are intended – and that can be disputed – they’re intended to protect an asset that already exists. But it doesn’t create more ridership, it doesn’t create more development, they don’t do anything.

Moving, rerouting the freight, would actually add value. Three of the biggest stations along the line, two of the stations are in St. Louis Park, the return on investment for our $1.6 Billion would be in that economic development. And St. Louis Park noted that, in their 2012 comments on the DEIS. They said, freight trains will interfere with the operations of the LRT stations and be a detriment to development in the area as a reason to move those tracks around those stations. Because they wanted that development. St. Louis Park said that in 2012.

So it’s a cost-versus-value issue here. What value is being brought, it’s not just a question of how much is it going to cost.

[ECtransplant]

Well if we want to talk about "value" and how silly it is to tunnel here, that seems to be begging to talk about 3C

[lordmoke]

So, if you're a gracious winner, or if you're the over-seer of the project, what do you do to make Minneapolis feel like they aren't just getting the shaft?

Expedite the Midtown Corridor so completion occurs in conjunction with SW opening, and add the Nicollet-Central line to the official regional transit plan so the feds will sign off on funding for it.

[MNdible]

Well if we want to talk about "value" and how silly it is to tunnel here, that seems to be begging to talk about 3C

Ugh. 3C was a half baked plan that had major issues. It currently lives on in the minds of many on this board, shrouded in a magical mist which makes it seem like a solution to all of our problems, because it has never been put through the rigorous additional design exercises that 3A has gone through. To say that we should go back to it is effectively saying that we should punt on LRT for the next decade.

[mulad]

In my mind, the Southwest line should go on/under Hennepin, and I'll try not to say much more than that. Would it be a problem to get the Nicollet/Central line into the regional plan, considering that the Orange Line is right next door (and is presumably the outgrowth of a previous plan to put transit down Nicollet)? The Orange Line barely stops anywhere, of course...

[FISHMANPET]

Even if 3C is half baked, as Hodges said, 3A was chosen in part because it would be easy. Since that's not the case, it would have been nice to examine more ways to get through South Minneapolis. But going back to the drawing board at this point may not be the best idea at this point.

[woofner]

How does Minneapolis/Hodges save face here? How does Hennepin County/Met Council help them do that?

If by 'save face' you mean consent to 3A without pissing off the wealthy DFL donors that live near Kenilworth, I don't see any way. This is why I think there is a good chance they will deny consent, and that Betsy Hodges' statement to the CMC was a good indication that it's going that way.

Yes, Midtown and the Nicollet streetcar are the best chances SWLRT has, but the Governor or the Met Council have to be a)invested in the project or b)politically astute enough to use them. I haven't seen much indication of either.

[MNdible]

If by 'save face' you mean consent to 3A without pissing off the wealthy DFL donors that live near Kenilworth, I don't see any way. This is why I think there is a good chance they will deny consent, and that Betsy Hodges' statement to the CMC was a good indication that it's going that way.

No, I really mean saving face with all of her constituents besides the Kenilworth residents, and also with the region's other leaders. The Kenilworth folks will be angry, and there's nothing that can be done about that. But she needs some way to explain to everybody else that this fight was worth having (and I believe it really was -- because the freight should have been in SLP, and the reasons why have nothing to do with wealthy Kenilworthians), and that even though we lost the fight, we still came away with some real benefit for the city.

I think Hodges is perfectly willing to walk away from the Kenilworth folks, but she needs to be given something to help justify it.

[Ubermoose]

(and I believe it really was -- because the freight should have been in SLP, and the reasons why have nothing to do with wealthy Kenilworthians)
.

If the mayor says it enough, I guess it must be true.

[MNdible]

If somebody who has admitted to be being biased because they live right next to the SLP freight route rolls their eyes, it must be meaningful.

[Ubermoose]

That was more a commentary on the mayor saying it multiple times whenever she talks about the situation. It's like Kevin Nealon doing his subliminal man bit. Eventually everyone will believe.
It's nice to know though, that because the situation might affect me, my opinion is invalid.

[MNdible]

It's nice to know though, that because the situation might affect me, my opinion is invalid.

Just because something is repeated doesn't mean it's not true.

I'm trying to look at this from a regional viewpoint. I promise you that I care about your opinion exactly as much as the opinion of somebody living next to the Kenilworth corridor. That is to say, I care, but I don't think that you should get to dictate what happens.

[mulad]

Sure would be nice if we could allow the people along the general corridor to decide some of these issues through a vote, since the representatives at the city/county/Met Council levels are having trouble weighing the opinions of various constituents.

[woofner]

I really mean saving face with all of her constituents besides the Kenilworth residents, and also with the region's other leaders.

Most Minneapolitans will find value in SWLRT or else not care about it, so I'd say she has no reason to save face with them. How many people pay any attention whatsoever to issues like these, no matter how many times it's on the front page of the Strib? On the other hand, this will be a black eye for her from the viewpoint of the region's other leaders. She could probably only mitigate it with municipal consent.

the freight should have been in SLP, and the reasons why have nothing to do with wealthy Kenilworthians)

Sure, but the SWLRT project really didn't need to be contingent on the freight reroute either, but it was, and it was decided not to reroute, time to move on. Hodges is being petty (I said childish in my blog post and stand by that) by spiting this necessary project just because she didn't get her way on the reroute. That is counterproductive. We'll see if she grows up.

[MNdible]

You may be right, that at the end of the day the only people that really care about this kerfuffle are a bunch of transit dorks and a bunch of immediate neighbors.

At this point, I guess it's not clear to me if Hodges is being shortsighted or petty or shrewd. We'll have to see how the rest of this plays out.

[David Greene]

They should have engaged TC&W earlier in the engineering process (although it's possible they did and the railroad didn't play ball, or maybe funding at this earlier, more conceptual stage didn't allow for it).

At some point I've heard that TC&W indeed didn't engage in the process when asked. Whether that's really true or not, I don't know, but it is something I heard about several months ago. I honestly don't remember who said that.

[ECtransplant]

People I've talked to IRL about SWLRT are either completely unaware of it or think it should go through uptown instead. None of these people are transit enthusiasts or urbanists, but my network is admittedly still a self selecting sample

[David Greene]

So, if you're a gracious winner, or if you're the over-seer of the project, what do you do to make Minneapolis feel like they aren't just getting the shaft?

Expedite the Midtown Corridor so completion occurs in conjunction with SW opening, and add the Nicollet-Central line to the official regional transit plan so the feds will sign off on funding for it.

That would be huge win for Minneapolis that Hodges could claim.

[froggie]

Can you give us some context on this? I have a set of conceptual engineering maps from 2006 that show freight rail removed. Are you sure the drawings you looked at didn't show the townhomes removed or the freight rail unrealistically close to the townhomes?

I admit I didn't take a good look down at the townhouses along St. Louis Ave. In retrospect, yes the freight rail is unrealistically close to those townhouses. There's also one building on the NW corner of 21st and Thomas that would have to be taken.

BTW, I found those drawings online, though it took a bit of work. Go to this Met Council page and they're under Appendix F (conceptual engineering drawings). The drawings specific to the colocation in Kenilworth begin on page 32 of the 3rd PDF set.

In my mind, the Southwest line should go on/under Hennepin, and I'll try not to say much more than that.

Concur, but to borrow an old Navy quote, that ship has sailed...