Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[RailBaronYarr]

Is the public money that will go in to completely redeveloping the VW station area (or Penn, for that matter) part of the cost of the 3A alignment? I ask because.. the whole point of routing the line where people are (and, to be honest, where people want to live today) is that there isn't much money required in other infrastructure to make the routing/station work. Building (and maintaining) all the streets, parks, will be required to make these stations work, and they wouldn't happen but for the LRT routing. Just a thought.

[orangevening]

Indefensible: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-89Sw ... AG0471.jpg

0 residents within 1/4 mile. Are we sure this is the right place for an LRT station?

LOVE, the "3A" sign. So prefect. Seriously, I am souring on this line more and more. I don't care if it takes another 30 years to build. No line is way better than the current plan now.

[mplsjaromir]

Meh. At least this the parking lot can be developed into a higher and better use. In Uptown, Whittier, Lyndale as long as a few elderly people like a building it stays. The way the city council has acted recently there is zero opportunity for redevelopment of standing residential properties. Might as well run new infrastructure through an area without incumbents, we could actually see some real density.

[UptownSport]

No line is way better than the current plan now.

I wonder about that- I'd have no qualms in saying Any line is better than SW (as you heard ad nauseum), but nothing is harder to ponder.
I suppose, in return, we have one Billion dollars (two, really, as the Federal money IS our money, too) to spend on something else or not pay in taxes.

Sure- Killing it sounds like a deal.

[RailBaronYarr]

Maybe, and I sure hope so.. although my question is, what's the impetus for the good kind of density? Is this area, with LRT, as desirable as many areas in Uptown? No offense, because I like Theo Wirth Park and the Bassett Creek master plan looks very nice in terms of parks/spaces, but I wouldn't say that area comes close to rivaling the Uptown area (the lakes, amenities, shopping, connections south and east, etc). What would the reason be to live there vs anywhere else along the Green Line?

[mplsjaromir]

Fixed guideway transit 5 minutes from 160,000 jobs would be quite tempting for many. It would be much closer than say the Gateway station on the Green Line. I'm not saying that a relatively small greenfield development is going to rival an established urban neighborhood, but I am sure lots of people would like to live close to downtown.

Clearly there is demand for more density in Minneapolis, but nostalgia is a good enough reason to stop development if you interpret actions by the city council. So you must build where no one lives right now.

[orangevening]

Meh. At least this the parking lot can be developed into a higher and better use. In Uptown, Whittier, Lyndale as long as a few elderly people like a building it stays. The way the city council has acted recently there is zero opportunity for redevelopment of standing residential properties. Might as well run new infrastructure through an area without incumbents, we could actually see some real density.

True. At the same time one of worst things Minneapolis has done has torn down way too much of it's history in my opinion. If they are over-compensating by blocking new development to protect historical building I have zero problems with that.

Back to the subject- If they go back to the drawing broad and realize a Hennipen [sic] tunnel is feasible (someday) Van White is almost directly north of Hennipen [sic] and Franklin, no reason it can't be be a station there (thus redevelopment)

[David Greene]

People said the same thing when the Portland streetcar was routed through brownfields. Today it is a built-up neighborhood.

Van White is a special spot. It's a prime location (close to downtown) with a willing developer and tons of neighborhood support for density. It could be a great example of TOD in the region. I've seen renderings for the proposed development and it is quite nice.

The only reason it's barren today is because the city dumped its impound lot and concrete crushing facility on Near North. So it's a little unfair to complain about the lack of density when the city prevented any development there. Don't people in North deserve some support for development?

Note that the LRT ridership does *not* account for the Van White development and 3A still makes sense while 3C does not. The numbers are projected from conditions as of three or so years ago. So the ridership here will only go up.

[mattaudio]

Shouldn't public transit capital investment connect land uses that support LRT-scale ridership?
How much is Ryan planning to spend on the Van White station to support it? Could they take a cue from the TCRT playbook and pay for the station to make their land developable?

[min-chi-cbus]

Indefensible: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-89Sw ... AG0471.jpg

0 residents within 1/4 mile. Are we sure this is the right place for an LRT station?

You can't envision the redevelopment dollars (and ROI) from this location? I can! That's probably the only reason they're putting a station here.

[mattaudio]

There could potentially be "real" return on investment, but we'd need to know the discrete marginal expense on infrastructure supporting this site.

[RailBaronYarr]

^^ That's my point. I'm not saying there won't be development dollars put in, temporary jobs created, even the benefit of increased supply of housing and office space within Minneapolis. I'm saying I'm not certain the actual revenues to the public will outweigh the cost the public invested, relative to other options where public investment is already made. If this shortfall does occur (which, the Bassett Creek Master Plan shows significant shortfall in revenue vs public expenditure, even including environmental remediation grants from other gov't entities as a "revenue"), those costs should be part of the 3A alignment cost.

If this place is so desirable, why hasn't development started? Again, if a fixed guideway, 5 minute commute to downtown and 160,000 jobs is enough reason, why not build a temporary direct-link bus line to where the station would be and let Ryan Cos go crazy right now? I understand the link to the SW burbs (in and out) as part of the LRT strengthens total connectivity and value, but I'm just curious why, given the virtuous location, nothing has been done to date.

[David Greene]

but I'm just curious why, given the virtuous location, nothing has been done to date.

You might have noticed a slight downtick in the real estate market recently.

And it certainly becomes much more attractive with a rail station.

Then there's the fact that the county wants to put a damn diesel train layover facility right next door, creating uncertainty.

[RailBaronYarr]

Van White is a special spot. It's a prime location (close to downtown) with a willing developer and tons of neighborhood support for density. It could be a great example of TOD in the region. I've seen renderings for the proposed development and it is quite nice.

The only reason it's barren today is because the city dumped its impound lot and concrete crushing facility on Near North. So it's a little unfair to complain about the lack of density when the city prevented any development there. Don't people in North deserve some support for development?

Note that the LRT ridership does *not* account for the Van White development and 3A still makes sense while 3C does not. The numbers are projected from conditions as of three or so years ago. So the ridership here will only go up.

When have you seen fantasyland renderings that didn't look nice? Of course the neighborhood is supportive of density in that area, it means there wouldn't be growth that utilizes the streets/pipes/wires already laid down in their own neighborhood. Just like how the Wedge is totally in support of density, as long as it's only along the edges on Hennepin or Lyndale.

If the 3A ridership predictions don't take in to account the Van White development, how did they expect 350 daily boardings? There is not a soul living within a 1/4 mile radius, and barely anyone within 1/2 mile radius (let alone the actual walk length and conditions), so I would call in to question the legitimacy of boardings predictions made by the study...

[mattaudio]

Well, we all know that if 21st St Station in Kenwood could get 1000 boardings, an impound lot could easily get 350 boardings! It's called math!

[RailBaronYarr]

You might have noticed a slight downtick in the real estate market recently.

And it certainly becomes much more attractive with a rail station.

Then there's the fact that the county wants to put a damn diesel train layover facility right next door, creating uncertainty.

Uptown seems to be doing just fine from a real estate development perspective. Even without the 3C (1 or 2) route being chosen (you might even say despite the lack of prioritized, high-speed transit being planned in the area). And no one is proposing to put a diesel train layover facility there, either.

I'll stop antagonizing. I'm not saying 3C (either route) was the silver bullet. I'm just not convinced that sticking with 3A and the sub-choices within it for dealing with freight/bike cost adders is the unquestioned way forward.

[mplsjaromir]

I'm just curious why, given the virtuous location, nothing has been done to date.

It is owned by the city of Minneapolis and is currently used for storage and general maintenance. I realize its not Credit River Township or anything, but it would still be good to have some redevelopment along a direct route from the SW suburbs to downtown.

[min-chi-cbus]

^^ That's my point. I'm not saying there won't be development dollars put in, temporary jobs created, even the benefit of increased supply of housing and office space within Minneapolis. I'm saying I'm not certain the actual revenues to the public will outweigh the cost the public invested, relative to other options where public investment is already made. If this shortfall does occur (which, the Bassett Creek Master Plan shows significant shortfall in revenue vs public expenditure, even including environmental remediation grants from other gov't entities as a "revenue"), those costs should be part of the 3A alignment cost.

If this place is so desirable, why hasn't development started? Again, if a fixed guideway, 5 minute commute to downtown and 160,000 jobs is enough reason, why not build a temporary direct-link bus line to where the station would be and let Ryan Cos go crazy right now? I understand the link to the SW burbs (in and out) as part of the LRT strengthens total connectivity and value, but I'm just curious why, given the virtuous location, nothing has been done to date.

I went and calculated the cost of borrowing $1B over 50 years with a 4% APR for some guy commenting on the Strib. It ends up being about $130K per day needed to offset the total cost of the project, which -- after 50 years -- would come out to about $2.3B after interest (gotta love compounding!). There are so many "returns" that could go into the ROI it's literally impossible to calculate: anything from tax revenue to carbon impacts to quality of living standards. Ultimately, I firmly believe that ANY city in the world which does not have rock solid transit infrastructure is going to be non-competitive in the somewhat near future. I think of today's cost of building rail as the opportunity cost lost by not doing so 20, 30, 50, 100 years earlier, but it still needs to be done.

[min-chi-cbus]

I'm just not convinced that sticking with 3A and the sub-choices within it for dealing with freight/bike cost adders is the unquestioned way forward.

No argument there.....I agree 100%!

[David Greene]

If the 3A ridership predictions don't take in to account the Van White development, how did they expect 350 daily boardings? There is not a soul living within a 1/4 mile radius, and barely anyone within 1/2 mile radius (let alone the actual walk length and conditions), so I would call in to question the legitimacy of boardings predictions made by the study...

Bryn Mawr Meadows, Dunwoody, the Basilica, etc.