Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
Chef
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Chef » November 14th, 2018, 8:17 pm

This "victory" means that we will probably never have useful rail transit in the southwestern quarter of the city. It will be interesting to see if a suburban commuter line is as successful as the two urban lines we have built. My guess is that this line will be a modest success at best. Hopefully I am wrong, but a lot of our suburban transit improvements have bombed.

Anondson
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Anondson » November 14th, 2018, 9:15 pm

I have wondered if we might see an uptick in development proposals along the suburban portion getting announcements now that the feds flashed this green light and practically removed the last bit of doubt.

David Greene
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » November 14th, 2018, 9:52 pm

This "victory" means that we will probably never have useful rail transit in the southwestern quarter of the city.
I don't see why not. Midtown LRT follows the route Southwest LRT might have through Uptown. If you mean serving points further south, then yeah, we were never going to get rail transit there anyway.

I know people don't think Midtown will happen but I remain hopeful. Perhaps the Nicollet streetcar TIF/whatever could be redirected to Midtown LRT by the legislature. Democrats will have a very good chance of flipping the state Senate in 2020.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » November 14th, 2018, 10:32 pm

This "victory" means that we will probably never have useful rail transit in the southwestern quarter of the city. It will be interesting to see if a suburban commuter line is as successful as the two urban lines we have built. My guess is that this line will be a modest success at best. Hopefully I am wrong, but a lot of our suburban transit improvements have bombed.
I'm not sure where exactly you're referring to, but there is an abandoned rail corridor down to Chaska and Carver, and there's TC&W's route through Chanhassen to points in western Minnesota, so those could be easy-to-build commuter routes.

Northstar and the Red Line were dealt a bad hand from the start, so of course they wouldn't be performing to expectations. I don't know what other suburban transit improvements you're referring to, but I'm sure they can all be attributed to either being built too early or not done right.

Multimodal
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Multimodal » November 14th, 2018, 10:35 pm

This "victory" means that we will probably never have useful rail transit in the southwestern quarter of the city. It will be interesting to see if a suburban commuter line is as successful as the two urban lines we have built. My guess is that this line will be a modest success at best. Hopefully I am wrong, but a lot of our suburban transit improvements have bombed.
Isn’t the idea that, if the alphabet aBRT lines (A, B, C…) succeed over the long term, carrying lots of people and inducing density, that in more enlightened times they would be upgraded to actual rail? You know, when cars are a concept of the distant past? Maybe we won’t be alive, but…

As for suburban commuter lines, just ask Hopkins & St Louis Park how much SWLRT—before it’s even built—has done for their density in new projects.

mamundsen
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby mamundsen » November 15th, 2018, 8:13 am

Will they look at 3c one last time? /s 🤪

Anondson
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Anondson » November 15th, 2018, 9:06 am

We could have a streets.mn candle vigil for 3C.

Bakken2016
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » November 15th, 2018, 9:16 am

We could have a streets.mn candle vigil for 3C. Image
RIP

tmart
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby tmart » November 15th, 2018, 9:54 am

I mean, the need for a rapid transit connection from Downtown to Uptown hasn't gone away, so while SWLRT won't be explicitly involved as often, the Uptown subway takes will live on.

alexschief
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » November 15th, 2018, 10:09 am

This "victory" means that we will probably never have useful rail transit in the southwestern quarter of the city.
It may be unlikely that SW Minneapolis will ever have a rail route direct to downtown, but the stalled (but essential) Midtown Rail concept would provide really useful crosstown service, the E-Line is already in the works, and I'd imagine that Lyndale and Nicollet would also be in line for aBRT upgrades in the future. Certainly will be no lack of transit options for SW Minneapolis in the future.

Oreos&Milk
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Oreos&Milk » November 15th, 2018, 7:56 pm

Now maybe we can talk about another green line extension on the OTHER end? 2-3 more station south of the Mississippi River in St. Paul. There is a lot of opportunity for a nice dense development to blossium in the area, plus connecting the St. Paul downtown Airport would be pretty neat too. It could really have the potential to develop local air taxi services from other near by cities that want to go directly to St. Paul instead of MSP & ending up in Minneapolis. I think Robert Street could afford to give up ONE lane over the bridge to allow a single track to gets trains "cheaply" across the river without giving up to much at the pinch point. Until a long-term redevelopment occurs way down the road whenever that happens..

Or maybe I'm getting a little to carried way with my pie in the sky ideas?

DanPatchToget
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » November 15th, 2018, 9:09 pm

Now maybe we can talk about another green line extension on the OTHER end? 2-3 more station south of the Mississippi River in St. Paul. There is a lot of opportunity for a nice dense development to blossium in the area, plus connecting the St. Paul downtown Airport would be pretty neat too. It could really have the potential to develop local air taxi services from other near by cities that want to go directly to St. Paul instead of MSP & ending up in Minneapolis. I think Robert Street could afford to give up ONE lane over the bridge to allow a single track to gets trains "cheaply" across the river without giving up to much at the pinch point. Until a long-term redevelopment occurs way down the road whenever that happens..

Or maybe I'm getting a little to carried way with my pie in the sky ideas?
I see one giant problem with that idea: It wouldn't serve Union Depot anymore. Another big problem is there is no airline serving Holman Field, and I would think air service would need to be established first (and be a long term commitment) before we think about adding any type of transit there. I think any eastern Green Line Extension would be upgrade and replace the Gold Line route to Woodbury.

To go back on topic, has there been any official development proposals in the Linden Yards area? If not, when can we expect it?

Korh
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Korh » November 15th, 2018, 10:02 pm

You know with swlrt finally seems to be moving forward I kinda have an idea for an article
Go to each station site and see what is currently there and what is proposed to be there eventually in a x mile radius.
Ever year or so (maybe less) go back to each station site and see if anything has changed for better or worse as construction progressed be it new development proposals, changes to already established ones, etc.
I know it doesn't seem like much but it might be kinda cool to have a documented timeline of development around the SWLRT to look back on.

Anondson
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Anondson » November 15th, 2018, 10:45 pm

For a while the Met Council was counting X number of developments of some total value along the Green Line. I think there was some wishful counting among the developments in that some would have happened regardless. There are certainly some developments, like The Moline, which have finished already but were in anticipation of SWLRT. Should developments like that count?

Multimodal
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Multimodal » November 15th, 2018, 11:26 pm

The Moline was one that I was thinking of in particular.

How has it fared in the absence of SWLRT? Fairly full?

alexschief
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » November 16th, 2018, 8:57 am

Now maybe we can talk about another green line extension on the OTHER end? 2-3 more station south of the Mississippi River in St. Paul. There is a lot of opportunity for a nice dense development to blossium in the area, plus connecting the St. Paul downtown Airport would be pretty neat too. It could really have the potential to develop local air taxi services from other near by cities that want to go directly to St. Paul instead of MSP & ending up in Minneapolis. I think Robert Street could afford to give up ONE lane over the bridge to allow a single track to gets trains "cheaply" across the river without giving up to much at the pinch point. Until a long-term redevelopment occurs way down the road whenever that happens..

Or maybe I'm getting a little to carried way with my pie in the sky ideas?
The geometry and benefits of going across the river from the end of the Green Line don't make a lot of sense.

Far more natural would be to extend the line in its current direction, using some combination of the existing railroad and highway land to bring it up to West 7th, where it would serve Metro State and then continue heading north, northeast, or east. But it's still unlikely to happen anytime soon, because the Rush and Gold Line BRT projects already cover the latter two directions (and only Phalen Blvd has the width to accommodate rail while also accommodating cars), and I assume Payne/Arcade will be targeted for aBRT in the future.

Korh
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Korh » November 16th, 2018, 9:02 am

For a while the Met Council was counting X number of developments of some total value along the Green Line. I think there was some wishful counting among the developments in that some would have happened regardless. There are certainly some developments, like The Moline, which have finished already but were in anticipation of SWLRT. Should developments like that count?
Kinda. It might be better if I try to give an example of what I'm thinking and you mentioned the Moline, might as well use downtown hopkins

Station: Downtown Hopkins
status: park and ride

Current development:
Call it forward thinking or simply being unaware the the line would be delayed so long, there are new developments already built in anticipation. The Moline and the 8th ave Artery. Combined this with the station being a short walk to the heart of downtown hopkins and you have a decent area around the station.

Proposed/future development:
Unlike the other two stops there aren't any concrete plans for more development. However there are 3 locations that might show something in the near future. First is addressed in the Hopkins 2040 plan to have some type of development on the west end of Mainstreet though the details on this are vague. Second is Hopkins Honda who if prodded might be willing to move to some adjacent land they own and turn their existing dealership over to developers. And Finally we have the recent news of SuperValue which depending on the fate of their whearhouse, could offer one of the single most land for development Hopkins has seen in recent years.
This is just a rough idea and someone else could probably do it better but basically do this for every station and every half a year to a year do a follow-up with new information/developments.

mattaudio
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » November 16th, 2018, 9:26 am

Now maybe we can talk about another green line extension on the OTHER end? 2-3 more station south of the Mississippi River in St. Paul. There is a lot of opportunity for a nice dense development to blossium in the area, plus connecting the St. Paul downtown Airport would be pretty neat too.
Or let's do a single track extension of SWLRT on the west end (past Eden Prairie) to Downtowns Chaska and Shakopee. Run two of every four trains past Eden Prairie, alternating between Chaska and Shakopee (every 30 minutes during rush hours, and every 1 hour off-peak). Connect two more county seats to the regional rail network with one relatively cheap project where the vast majority of the roadbed already exists and is owned by HCRRA. Could even work as a DMU with a cross-platform transfer at EP.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dzgqO ... sp=sharing

As for the St. Paul West Side Green Line extension idea... Is the Red Rock Corridor BRT still a thing? Route that across the Wakota Bridge and serve WSP and SSP via some combo of Concord, 52, or Robert St. Red Rock's routing along Hwy 61 from Newport to St. Paul is a holdover from when it was planned as commuter rail on the BNSF/CP mainline... The only planned stop is Lower Afton, a low-use park & ride with virtually no TOD potential. Routing it across the Wakota Bridge to St. Paul hits much more population, employment, and existing walkable transit-oriented neighborhoods. I'll also drop this in the Red Rock thread.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gFP-m ... sp=sharing

Multimodal
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Multimodal » November 16th, 2018, 9:58 am

For something as far as Chaska & Shakopee, would it make sense to forgo parking in order to encourage transit-oriented development?

Otherwise it seems you’re encouraging people to continue to live way out in the exurbs.

mattaudio
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » November 16th, 2018, 10:07 am

Yeah, I'm thinking serve their walkable urban cores... they are both really cool old walkable towns.


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