Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

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David Greene
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » April 28th, 2015, 9:32 am

HuskyGrad wrote:
David Greene wrote:Costs have gone down before. Central Corridor came in under its original budget which resulted in all kinds of upgrades. In fact I believe both of our LRT projects came in under budget, resulting in contingency funds being used for upgrades.
You are no longer allowed to use contingency funds on upgrades during construction.
Well, we did on both lines. But that's not the point. The point is that the lines came in under budget, in contrast to the picture Anondson painted.

twincitizen
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » April 28th, 2015, 9:38 am

Here's the more detailed information we've been looking for:
The Met Council broke down some of the major cost increases:

Construction costs:

$32 million for additional retaining walls, excavation, pile and shoring;
$23 million for added costs for Kenilworth Tunnel foundation and ventilation;
$21 million for increased costs of the operations and maintenance facility building;
$13 million for added safety at crossings.
Non-construction costs:

$45 million-$50 million for costs of the one-year delay;
$33 million for additional land purchases;
$85 million for increased contingency reserve
$19 million for additional train sets the review shows are needed to maintain the service levels promised.
http://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy ... t-worth-it

David Greene
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » April 28th, 2015, 9:38 am

Viktor Vaughn wrote:This three prong strategy -- commuter buses, Arterial BRT, and truly urban rail down the line -- provides benefits to the suburbs and the city. It allows us to start immediately and plan for big improvements in the future.
What's your proposal for the Northside, Linden Yard and the impound lot? A subway down Hennepin does zero to address the real equity issues in our transit system.

mattaudio
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » April 28th, 2015, 9:42 am


David Greene
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » April 28th, 2015, 9:43 am

twincitizen wrote:Here's the more detailed information we've been looking for:
The Met Council broke down some of the major cost increases:

Construction costs:

$32 million for additional retaining walls, excavation, pile and shoring;
$23 million for added costs for Kenilworth Tunnel foundation and ventilation;
$21 million for increased costs of the operations and maintenance facility building;
$13 million for added safety at crossings.
Non-construction costs:

$45 million-$50 million for costs of the one-year delay;
$33 million for additional land purchases;
$85 million for increased contingency reserve
$19 million for additional train sets the review shows are needed to maintain the service levels promised.
http://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy ... t-worth-it
Trainsets?!? I'd think that is something we should have known a LONG time ago. Did the re-route through EP really change things that much?

Recall that Dayton put a hold on this project so he is at least partially responsible for the inflationary increase.

Could a reroute address the retaining walls, pilings and shorings and land acquisition issues? Even with that, it seems like the cost savings may not make up for the additional inflation.

David Greene
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » April 28th, 2015, 9:44 am

So? I never said Uptown doesn't need more transit.

We're building a system. People who live outside the 1/4 radius can in fact use the system.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby FISHMANPET » April 28th, 2015, 9:47 am

I don't think anybody here buys the claim that SWLRT is going to much of anything for the Northside, but by all means, keep banging that drum.

acs
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby acs » April 28th, 2015, 9:49 am

David Greene wrote:
Viktor Vaughn wrote:This three prong strategy -- commuter buses, Arterial BRT, and truly urban rail down the line -- provides benefits to the suburbs and the city. It allows us to start immediately and plan for big improvements in the future.
What's your proposal for the Northside, Linden Yard and the impound lot? A subway down Hennepin does zero to address the real equity issues in our transit system.
I didn't know that sand piles and impounded cars felt so slighted by our transportation system that it justified a $2 Billion transit line. Not that 3C would be any more politically feasible, it literally solves almost none of the recent cost problems.

EOst
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby EOst » April 28th, 2015, 9:53 am

FISHMANPET wrote:I don't think anybody here buys the claim that SWLRT is going to much of anything for the Northside, but by all means, keep banging that drum.
It's amazing how much more urbanists on the Internet know about the needs of Northsiders than all the actual Northsiders who have vocally and repeatedly talked about the benefits of the line. Those poor fools, who don't understand how much nicer their lives could be if they could ride a train to Uptown!

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Archiapolis » April 28th, 2015, 9:59 am

Nick wrote:Who isn't pushing a political agenda? What does that even mean?
Sorry (not sorry) to ask...would 3C be IMPOSSIBLE to pass without Eden Prairie political support?

Disclaimer: I haven't looked at the report/issue fully so I'm not sure where the soil remediation is happening (Hopkins area right?) so I'm assuming that no savings could be obtained by 3C versus 3A.

Viktor Vaughn
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Viktor Vaughn » April 28th, 2015, 10:00 am

Northside would benefit a lot more if just a small portion of the SW money was redirected to aBRT and bulding better bus stop amenities.

"I don't think anybody here buys the claim that SWLRT is going to much of anything for the Northside, but by all means, keep banging that drum."

Thank you. That argument was terrible the first time we heard it. It has just gotten weaker since.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby FISHMANPET » April 28th, 2015, 10:01 am

Well this argument has been hashed out a million times specifically in the context of 3A providing much better access to jobs outside of the city than 3C, because you can make a shitty transfer at Royalston instead of downtown. I mean, sure, improve the bus service to give better connections to whatever we end up with, but let's not pretend (like David continuously does) that 3A is a massive earth shattering paradigm shift improvement for Northside connectivity vs 3C.

Viktor Vaughn
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Viktor Vaughn » April 28th, 2015, 10:03 am

EOst wrote:
FISHMANPET wrote:I don't think anybody here buys the claim that SWLRT is going to much of anything for the Northside, but by all means, keep banging that drum.
It's amazing how much more urbanists on the Internet know about the needs of Northsiders than all the actual Northsiders who have vocally and repeatedly talked about the benefits of the line. Those poor fools, who don't understand how much nicer their lives could be if they could ride a train to Uptown!
Northsiders are pushing for this line? I've heard them advocating for heated shelters and other dignified stop amenities, but not SW LRT.

Archiapolis
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Archiapolis » April 28th, 2015, 10:04 am

EOst wrote:
FISHMANPET wrote:I don't think anybody here buys the claim that SWLRT is going to much of anything for the Northside, but by all means, keep banging that drum.
It's amazing how much more urbanists on the Internet know about the needs of Northsiders than all the actual Northsiders who have vocally and repeatedly talked about the benefits of the line. Those poor fools, who don't understand how much nicer their lives could be if they could ride a train to Uptown!
If "the Northsiders" choices are binary then that conditions the answer doesn't it?

Is a light rail line that barely grazes low density areas of your "neighborhood" a good thing?

Is no light rail line that barely grazes low density areas of your "neighborhood" a good thing?

I know that the following choice doesn't exist either because funding but if "Northsiders" were given a choice between

Bottineau and/or Broadway streetcar
vs
SWLRT

I wonder how that question would be answered.

Sincerely,
The Internet Urbanist

ProspectPete
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby ProspectPete » April 28th, 2015, 10:07 am

I don't spend that much time on this thread, but there seems to be a lot of discussion as to how to salvage this and put humpty dumpty back together again.... whether is is a removing a station here or less amenities there....Am I the only one here who is actually happy that this may not be built?

Those $2,000,000,000 could be spend on needs in Urban areas that have LRT ready ROW, ie. MIdtown and Riverview (using the Ford RR spur). Or how about addressing the DT East station and spending some money on making that a center platform station?

I mean, I thought that the goal was to have denser, more walkable "8-80 cities", which you get when you have solid transit investments in urban areas. The Green line is proof of that. In less than a year, there are multiple infill developments and other project in the works. Why are we not building out the network in the core cities first? With river view you could complete the *triangle*. Midtown seems so obvious to me that I'm left scratching my head as to why that wasn't first on the list.

EOst
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby EOst » April 28th, 2015, 10:07 am

Viktor Vaughn wrote:Northsiders are pushing for this line? I've heard them advocating for heated shelters and other dignified stop amenities, but not SW LRT.
The two are not exclusive. Yes, North Minneapolis needs better transit infrastructure. It also needs access to jobs. Heated shelters don't get you to the Golden Triangle.

acs
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby acs » April 28th, 2015, 10:10 am

You guys realize that the 3A vs 3C argument that has been hashed out a thousand times on this board is literally a moot point right now? If cost is the deciding factor in this project moving forward sometime in the next 20 years (and it is), and 3A is already too expensive, then 3C most definitely is not happening.

EOst
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby EOst » April 28th, 2015, 10:10 am

Archiapolis wrote:Bottineau and/or Broadway streetcar
vs
SWLRT

I wonder how that question would be answered.
You can ask them that yourself; it's just as presumptuous for me to speak for them as for you. But I can tell you what I've been told repeatedly (and what others have been told as well, and what people from the North have written) is that the SW line would dramatically improve access to the right now extremely poorly served job centers of the SW suburbs. Is it perfect? Of course not. But this is a line in a system, not a system in itself.

acs
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby acs » April 28th, 2015, 10:15 am

ProspectPete wrote: Midtown seems so obvious to me that I'm left scratching my head as to why that wasn't first on the list.
Why do people think that Midtown is some magic corridor that is viable on it's own? It's not. It most definitely relies on a high quality connection into downtown at least somewhere west of Nicollet. One of the main reasons the Met Council and Metro transit aren't pushing Midtown yet is because SWLRT is in such limbo and without it Midtown is much less viable.

mattaudio
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » April 28th, 2015, 10:24 am

The value in Midtown is not taking the train far west to the SLP border to transfer to SWLRT to get downtown.


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