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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 14th, 2016, 2:53 pm
by BoredAgain
RailBaronYarr wrote:I mean, I guess that doesn't square with these three drawings (plus color code chart) taken from Appendix F of the DEIS. They clearly show that the roadway would cantilever over the platforms to allow a sidewalk and roadway to continue on where the stations were. The same was true for the 3C alternates where N/S-bound trains ran under either Blaisdell or 1st Ave.

And, there's this from the DEIS Chapter 6: Transportation Effects (p6-24):
In Segment C-1, the alignment travels under Nicollet Avenue in a tunnel and features two open-air stations. At station locations along Nicollet Avenue, one travel lane in each direction will be cantilevered over the open-air stations below. This will call for the removal of the center-turn lanes along Nicollet Avenue, as well as modifying the appearance of the roadway. The cantilevered roadway sections and open air tunnels extend from 250 feet south of 27th Street to 29th Street as well as from 200 feet north of 22nd Street to 200 feet north of Franklin Avenue.
So I'm not sure where that other description comes from. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that multiple other documents show the opposite. In any case, I always thought it was weird that we'd build a cut-cover tunnel but then leave the station open air rather than just closing it off. I'd imagine folks would have pushed to just close it to have a wider sidewalk and/or keep the center turn lanes or whatever.
Thank you for the links to the drawings. I had never looked at them before since the 3A/3C debate was finished before I moved back to this state. It now makes more sense why they chose the alignment that they chose, even if I still think it was the wrong choice.

Also, many of the of the more negative and permanent problems could have been "fixed".

Also, also, I still think a Hennepin Ave alignment would have made the most sense (not considering added costs).

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 14th, 2016, 2:55 pm
by mattaudio
I always figured those design elements were deliberately a part of 3C to try and sink the alignment.

What kind of underground rail transit - especially in a cold/snow climate - doesn't fully box in its stations?

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 14th, 2016, 2:55 pm
by talindsay
Yeah, I liked 2012 too, but why are we reliving it in this thread? Come on guys, this is stupid.

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 14th, 2016, 3:13 pm
by BoredAgain
talindsay wrote:Yeah, I liked 2012 too, but why are we reliving it in this thread? Come on guys, this is stupid.
It is important to understand the mistakes of the past if we expect to do better in the future.

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 14th, 2016, 3:41 pm
by grant1simons2
BoredAgain wrote:
talindsay wrote:Yeah, I liked 2012 too, but why are we reliving it in this thread? Come on guys, this is stupid.
It is important to understand the mistakes of the past if we expect to do better in the future.
We're not going to make much change in the future by discussing it on an internet forum every 2 months...

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 14th, 2016, 3:46 pm
by RailBaronYarr
From my end, it's nice to understand the politics behind decisions, as well as what was proposed and what it would have cost (best estimates at the time), to be able to make sound assessments of proposals' worth in the future. I like it when other people can do the same. Several people on here, ones who strongly supported the alignment we got, were making claims about this project's design that were, in my opinion, not accurate. Literally nobody is trying to argue for or against 3A or 3C right now, or hoping there's a chance the Met Council will change its mind.

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 14th, 2016, 3:52 pm
by FISHMANPET
Yeah we missed our last chance at the streets fund raiser when Adam Duininck spoke.

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 14th, 2016, 4:02 pm
by Silophant
Wait, if (the) CTIB dissolves, we get to start the process over, right?

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 14th, 2016, 4:13 pm
by grant1simons2
Image

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 15th, 2016, 12:38 am
by thatchio
Well if you're asking, the 3C open station cut-cover option was not well developed. It was the concept that was presented and I don't recall anyone (including myself) pushing for it or the Midtown Greenway trail crossing at-grade across Nicollet. I think the county/their consultants had identified what potentially was the most cost effective shallow tunnel option and took it out. We do not know their intentions of sharing that option over a more expensive option that perhaps didn't have the same level of local impacts. CEI was a big deal back then. As a participant in the process, it felt very frustrating to have other community members share anti-3C opinions based upon specific design elements that really could have been addressed through the preliminary engineering phase.

But it isn't relevant to Southwest now. Its alignment has been chosen and is fully developed. It is moments from being fully funded and then constructed. If we want to rehash transit project development approaches and ideas on how MSP could improve system planning and project development so that it better (insert your idea of what it should be doing here), then I'd encourage it move to a different thread. Perhaps a mod can help.

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 15th, 2016, 7:41 pm
by helsinki
Oof. The walkability of the station areas is approaching zero. This is the opposite of the Central Corridor.

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 16th, 2016, 12:07 am
by DanPatchToget
helsinki wrote:
Oof. The walkability of the station areas is approaching zero. This is the opposite of the Central Corridor.

My grades for each station:

Southwest Station- C-
Does there really need to be another parking ramp?

EP Town Center- C+
Seems to be kind of hidden and isn't close to EP Mall.

Golden Triangle- C+
I wonder what the prospects are of getting one of the local bus routes that end in Bloomington/Edina to serve here?

City West- D
Doesn't seem to be close to the area this station is named for, and there doesn't seem to be any direct trails to the area that people will actually go to.

Opus- C-
Better grade if they have a local bus that shuttles people to the employment centers in this area.

Shady Oak- C
Not the greatest in terms of pedestrian/bike access but at least the trail directly serves it.

Hopkins- A

Blake Road- B
Thank god they're building an underpass for the trail.

Louisiana Avenue- B-
Seems like excessive park & ride spaces but it does fit in nicely with my vision for a station nearby on the Dan Patch Line.

Wooddale Avenue- B+
Same reason as Blake Road.

Belt Line Blvd.- C+

West Lake- A

21st Street- B
I wonder how many people will use this to access Hidden Beach?

The rest of the stations get a B- for good effort, just as long as it isn't too close to the BNSF right-of-way (besides the choke point just west of Target Field) so that can be widened for regional passenger trains if that ever comes to fruition.

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 17th, 2016, 9:55 pm
by DanPatchToget
Can the Trump administration take away the federal funding for Southwest LRT? And Bottineau? What are the chances that this happens?

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 19th, 2016, 9:20 am
by talindsay
Of course he can. I actually don't think it's likely though - he's a New Yorker and used to big city things, so I'd be surprised if he came in with an axe to grind against transit. There's always the danger that small-government conservatives in Congress will tell him to cut transit funding in exchange for them voting for some of his more crazy ideas, of course.

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 19th, 2016, 12:06 pm
by mattaudio
I think it's clear so far that transit funding - and other strings in general - won't stand on the merit of if it's good, but rather will stand or fall as a string to pull to get what Trump wants as far as larger policy objectives or personal interests.

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 19th, 2016, 1:27 pm
by Silophant
What happens to the $800M CTIB and Hennepin County dollars if federal funding is suddenly yanked? (Well, obviously like $200M or whatever is already spent on engineering and etc, so that's gone). Do we end up building just as far as Shady Oak and the OMF to salvage what we can, or scrap the whole shebang?

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 19th, 2016, 1:54 pm
by EOst
Where is the Met Council on getting the final funding agreement signed by the feds? I know someone here (David?) suggested they might attempt to rush it through.

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 19th, 2016, 2:13 pm
by Tom H.
From the most recent CTIB agenda:
The Council intends to submit its application to the FTA for the federal Full Funding Grant
Agreement (FFGA) in February 2017. FTA approval of the FFGA is anticipated in July
2017.
I assume the application could be bumped up somewhat (although probably not by much), but no matter what the federal review / response period looks like it will spill over into the Trump administration.

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 19th, 2016, 3:36 pm
by SkyScraperKid
Plus let's not forget that Minnesota didn't vote for Trump in either the primary or general election. I wonder if that would play into Trump's decision. Why fund public transit in places that won't help you get re-elected? Seems more logical to fund added transit in swing states like Wisconsin, and Michigan.

That is unless Trump truly wants to make ALL of America great and won't be insulted that people here didn't vote for him, twice...

Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Posted: December 19th, 2016, 4:13 pm
by colink
Trump has threatened to withhold federal funding from sanctuary cities. Minneapolis is a sanctuary city.