Minneapolis Streetcar System

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
MNdible
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby MNdible » October 17th, 2012, 4:10 pm

Similarly, it doesn't matter how great buses are - a substantial segment of the population sees them as detestable. Those same people have been shown in study after study to find rail modes of all types (it's "real mass transit!") to be desirable or at least more reasonable as a choice.
You're not wrong about this, but I think it does fall apart at a certain point. Take a look at who's riding the 4 or the 6 during rush hour, and you'll see that it's packed with a lot of people who are "choice" transit riders. On routes like this, where the bus travels through dense neighborhoods on simple, legible routes, I don't think that you would get much of a rail bias. More people might ride it if it were a bit faster (and you could achieve that with Rapid Bus too), but I really don't believe that for core users, rail would make much of a difference.

You probably would pick up some more occasional users and tourists, but I'm really not sure that's worth it.

UptownSport
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby UptownSport » October 17th, 2012, 9:22 pm

Wikipedia had a good amount on the positives of Trams,

Alot is what Talin says, people just Like them more
Advantages

*Steel wheels on steel track create about one-seventh as much friction as rubber tyres on bitumen, thus creating dramatically less pollution when carrying the same load.

*Unlike omnibuses, but like trolleybuses, (electric) trams give off no exhaust emissions at point of use.

*Most trams can be driven from either end (the major exception being the PCC car used in North America). This means that the infrastructure needed at termini can be quite simple. In comparison, trolleybuses usually require loops that take up much space, and omnibuses often travel over a circular route at termini thus doing damage to more roads, as well as being confusing to potential passengers.

* Compared to motorbuses the noise of trams is generally perceived to be less disturbing.[citation needed] However, the use of solid axles with wheels fixed to them causes slippage between wheels and tracks when negotiating curves. This produces a characteristic squeal.

* They can use overhead wire set to be shared with trolleybuses (a three wire system).

*The existence of a fixed route gives people confidence in the robustness and long-term future of the system, allowing them to rely on it and build their lifestyles around it. A bus route could be cancelled at any time, but a tram line is far less likely to close down.

*Some trams can adapt to the number of passengers by adding more cars during rush hour (and removing them during off-peak hours). No additional driver is then required for the trip in comparison to buses.

*In general, trams provide a higher capacity service than buses.

* Multiple entrances allow trams to load faster than suburban coaches, which tend to have a single entrance. This, combined with swifter acceleration and braking, lets trams maintain higher overall speeds than buses, if congestion allows.

* The trams' stops in the street are easily accessible, unlike stations of subways and commuter railways placed underground (with several escalators, stairways etc.) or in the outskirts of the city center.

* Rights-of-way for trams are narrower than for buses. This saves valuable space in cities with high population densities and/or narrow streets.

*Trams can trackshare with mainline railways, servicing smaller towns without requiring special track as in Stadtbahn Karlsruhe and at greater speed than buses.

* Passenger comfort is normally superior to buses because of controlled acceleration and braking and curve easement. Rail transport such as used by trams provides a smoother ride than road use by buses.

*Because the tracks are visible, it is easy for potential riders to know where the routes are.

*Because trams run on rails, the ride is far more comfortable than that of a rubber-tyred bus. Blemishes in the road surface are far less noticeable.

* Vehicles run more efficiently and overall operating costs are lower.

*Trams can run on renewable electricity without the need for very expensive and short life batteries.

* Consistent market research and experience over the last 50 years in Europe and North America shows that car commuters are willing to transfer some trips to rail-based public transport but not to buses. Typically light rail systems attract between 30 and 40% of their patronage from former car trips. Rapid transit bus systems attract less than 5% of trips from cars, less than the variability of traffic

helsinki
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby helsinki » October 18th, 2012, 12:01 am

Similarly, it doesn't matter how great buses are - a substantial segment of the population sees them as detestable. Those same people have been shown in study after study to find rail modes of all types (it's "real mass transit!") to be desirable or at least more reasonable as a choice.
You're not wrong about this, but I think it does fall apart at a certain point. Take a look at who's riding the 4 or the 6 during rush hour, and you'll see that it's packed with a lot of people who are "choice" transit riders. On routes like this, where the bus travels through dense neighborhoods on simple, legible routes, I don't think that you would get much of a rail bias. More people might ride it if it were a bit faster (and you could achieve that with Rapid Bus too), but I really don't believe that for core users, rail would make much of a difference.

You probably would pick up some more occasional users and tourists, but I'm really not sure that's worth it.
Designers ignore 'intangibles' at their peril; human behavior will ruin a numerically sound project. Think of the analogy to public housing. Le Corbusier inspired high rises a la Cedar Riverside failed and are being demolished nationwide. This is still upsetting to archItectural theory - the location was right, there was sufficient living space, modern appliances, community areas, etc. Indeed, my brother and his wife looked at a place there when they were students and said it really wasn't so bad. Yet it failed because of perceptions. If we want people to embrace public transit as a primary means of getting around, it can't just be about moving as many people as cheaply as possible. This will serve to perpetuate the myth that only the poor ride transit because they have no other choice. It needs to be made an attractive option.

MNdible
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby MNdible » October 18th, 2012, 7:37 am

Did you read my post? It's quite clear that ridership on the 4 and the 6 is packed with people who could afford to drive, but choose to take the bus. They don't care that it's a bus rather than a streetcar, because it effectively and inexpensively takes them from their house to their place of work.

It may also be important that the bus is full of people who look like them. I suspect that class/race likely plays a role in this, but I'm not sure.

I'm not sure how replicable this is -- it may be a result of the right neighborhood with the right demographics -- but it's definitely there.

helsinki
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby helsinki » October 18th, 2012, 7:49 am

Did you read my post? It's quite clear that ridership on the 4 and the 6 is packed with people who could afford to drive, but choose to take the bus. They don't care that it's a bus rather than a streetcar, because it effectively and inexpensively takes them from their house to their place of work.

It may also be important that the bus is full of people who look like them. I suspect that class/race likely plays a role in this, but I'm not sure.

I'm not sure how replicable this is -- it may be a result of the right neighborhood with the right demographics -- but it's definitely there.
Well of course; lots of people think the bus is great and ride it all the time. So do I. Despite this, the vast majority of trips are made by car. Transit can't just preach to the choir, however. It needs to evangelize.

MNdible
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby MNdible » October 18th, 2012, 7:57 am

I guess my point is that I don't think bus vs. streetcar is what's keeping people from using transit. It's the built form, it's the schedule and frequency, it's the demographics, it's a subtle desire to not want to hang around the wrong type of people, etc.

Tcmetro
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby Tcmetro » October 18th, 2012, 8:09 am

The bus is very good at getting people downtown, but try going crosstown. Enjoy your 1 hour commute. And if time is of concern, good luck on a crosstown trip outside city limits! Frequencies are poor on crosstown routes, which also rarely have evening service, and there are many gaps in the grid network. Additionally, the facilities are poor (think about the graffiti-ridden bus shelter missing a panel of glass) and schedules are only posted at bus stops with shelters (~1500 out of 18000 bus stops). Add in the fact that buses stop every block, and you have to wonder sometimes how Metro Transit is able to attract 230,000 riders per day.

These are structural issues in the bus system that can be solved relatively cheaply, and significantly improve service for riders. I would imagine more people would be attracted by faster and more frequent service rather than streetcars.

helsinki
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby helsinki » October 18th, 2012, 10:22 am

I agree with absolutely everything that the two of you just said. And I think that before we build streetcars, we seriously need to improve the bus system. Washington DC has shelters with maps and NextBus numbers to call at every single bus stop in the entire city - it's phenomenal. MSP is not a poor metro (quite the contrary) - we can have something similar here too. At the same time, I think that a starter streetcar line, or system, would go a long way (as Hiawatha has, I might add) towards improving public perceptions of the system generally (in addition to improving an already high capacity corridor).

I have spent an embarassing amount of time thinking about where and what kind of lines could work crosstown (fantasy alert, yes, admitted) and really, a subway running from the new West Lake SW LRT stop, to the river under Lake Street would be perfect (I say this cognizant of the Minneapolis-bias it probably exudes). You look at a site like urbanrail.net and you realize how tortuous some routes are to make connections in other cities. We have such a prime candidate in Lake Street. Put stops at the SW LRT, Hennepin, Lyndale, Nicollet (re-opened, of course), 4th Avenue, Chicago, 15th/Bloomington, Cedar, Hiawatha LRT (Blue Line, whatever), 36th and 46th (and if you've lost your marbles completely then why not cross the river and meet up with Central or head down to St. Thomas and run under Grand past Macalester to downtown St. Paul). The stops I listed would create a line running approximately 6 miles - not outrageous, even at the absurd $200 million per mile costs US transit authorities pay for full underground metros. Just imagine - the corridor would explode with development, rising tax base, lower crime, and on and on. Try and convince people of the attendant social benefits of such investments though; they just can't get past the headline cost. Anyway, I digress.

MNdible
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby MNdible » October 18th, 2012, 10:57 am

The biggest issue with crosstown service is that not that many people want to go crosstown. Or at least, if they do want to go crosstown, it's to a widely disparate set of destinations from a widely disparate set of originations. People will argue it's a chicken and the egg thing, that if we provided better service, more people would use it, but I'm skeptical -- I don't think the demand will ever justify it.

Lake Street is the only real exception to this rule, I think, and conveniently, we already have a grade-separated ROW a block north of there. So let's use it. In my mind, the Greenway is really the best candidate for a streetcar-LRT hybrid system. I'd move it ahead of Nicollet-Central, because I think it would give you great cost-benefit, and it adds a completely new service rather than just replacing existing not-so-bad bus service. (It technically would replace a portion of the 53, but it should be able to vastly outperform the existing route).

mattaudio
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby mattaudio » October 18th, 2012, 11:45 am

Agreed. Midtown Greenway streetcar is the best way to improve a crosstown route, and I hope it is built to LRT spec in the trench. I don't think it would cost that much more and it would keep many more options open in the future. The biggest LRT expense seems to be the vehicles, so why not build the ROW to LRT spec and run streetcar vehicles on it in the meantime. The other crosstown routes are already fine. I live by the 46 and it runs every 30 min, but the main issue I have with it is the transfer penalty and total trip time if I want to go anywhere by bus like DT St. Paul via the 54 or friends on north Snelling on the 84... long rides on two slow buses and a transfer doesn't have a chance at competing with getting in my car, unfortunately.

UptownSport
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby UptownSport » October 18th, 2012, 12:49 pm

I'd say if you're building tunnels, under the Uptown area would be first choice; running trolleys or more buses up either Lyndale or Hennepin would affect traffic too much, I think. Although trolly ROW is narrower than Bus:
* Rights-of-way for trams are narrower than for buses. This saves valuable space in cities with high population densities and/or narrow streets.
Still not convinced the Greenway would be such a boon to the city, but as MNdible pointed out, everything's there already, so it's the (relative) 'Easy' button for rail.

twincitizen
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby twincitizen » October 19th, 2012, 12:28 am

My issue with the Midtown Corridor as its being studied today (between Southwest and Hiawatha LRT only) is that it doesn't even cover the very shortest branch of the Route 21 (Uptown to 27th Av S). The Hi-Frequency branded part of the 21 actually runs all the way east to Cretin! http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... 021Map.pdf

I guess I have an issue with implementing streetcars if they don't supplant ANY bus service, especially in this corridor where you already have local AND limited stop routes. The Route 53 used to run in both directions during peak hours, but was recently cut back to only running eastbound in the AM and westbound in the PM. This suggests there is limited demand for such a service...even though I don't want to believe it! As someone who wants to travel quickly, I wish every 4th trip of the 21 would be a 53, and not just during peak hours.

mulad
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby mulad » October 19th, 2012, 8:44 am

I think route 53 has had the problem of getting stuck behind route 21 buses and having limited opportunities to pass. In my mind, limited-stop routes should really be the primary service in Hi-Frequency corridors, and possibly the only service (like with route 54 between St. Paul and MSP/MOA, although routes 70 and 74 cover part of the distance as local routes before branching off). The travel time advantage of limited-stop routes can evaporate at certain times of day, but usually only late evening/overnight (when there isn't much traffic and passengers naturally space themselves out at stops).

I wonder if the folks at Metro Transit and whoever else who has worked on this project have been thinking about extending the streetcar along the east end of Lake Street in a later phase -- tracks could probably just turn from the at-grade station they're planning next to the Hiawatha Line bridge directly onto Lake Street. But figuring out how to get a streetcar to fit through that SPUI would be a challenge, and it could annihilate the service reliability (frequency-wise). Traffic drops off on Lake Street as you get closer to the Mississippi (though I think it spikes again right by the bridge itself), but it is pretty bad right near Hiawatha.

MNdible
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby MNdible » October 19th, 2012, 9:13 am

Yeah, I had also thought about running it perhaps as a very limited stop service and basically following the Greenway ROW across the bridge and connect up to a Green Line station (Raymond looks like the easiest one to me). It looks like there's track ROW that could get you pretty close. Obviously, there's not much in the way of trip generators through that eastern section.

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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby talindsay » October 19th, 2012, 12:28 pm

I think a Greenway streetcar should run from West Lake to Raymond station. It could run in the Greenway from West Lake to Hiawatha Lake Street Station, with a station platform at ground level oriented roughly north-south just west of the Hiawatha light rail platform, in the free space north of Lake. Then it could dive underground into a cut-and-cover tunnel under Lake Street to 29th Ave, where it would emerge into the center of the street - that's a little less than a half mile. Provide simple platforms every four to eight blocks, cross the River on the Lake Street Bridge, then turn north on Pelham or Cretin. Cretin would be more useful of course, but Pelham would make for a better connection to the Green Line. The last station on the streetcar line could be on the block south of University, allowing a walk across the street to connect to the light rail, or the line could connect in with the light rail tracks to allow through-routing of streetcars to downtown St. Paul.

twincitizen
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby twincitizen » March 12th, 2013, 11:37 am

Bill went and lit a new fire under this argument, not that it's a bad thing: https://streets.mn/2013/03/12/six-less- ... treetcars/

twincitizen
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby twincitizen » June 12th, 2013, 2:33 pm

Streetcar system planning question for y'all:

Let's assume for a minute that we build a streetcar on Nicollet from the Hennepin Ave Bridge to Lake Street. Let's also assume it gets built in two phases: 1-from the river to I-94 and 2-from I-94 to Lake Street.

Let's also assume that Southwest, Bottineau, and a Midtown line are all built as planned and are funded separately than any Minneapolis Streetcar business. Let's also assume that all other important corridors have aBRT/Rapid Bus lines running at this point. (Snelling, 7th, Penn, Chicago-Fremont, etc)

Here's the hundred million dollar question: Which 2-mile streetcar segment do you build next?
1. Do you go further down Nicollet to 46th, through relatively well-off Kingfield? OR
2. Do you go further up Central Ave NE, say to Lowry? OR
3. Do you start building the kinda-promised Washington-Broadway line to serve the areas that were skipped by the Bottineau alignment? Assume for this purpose that the initial segment is on Washington, from Hennepin to Broadway, eventually extended west on Broadway to the Blue Line (Bottineau).

So which is it? Which 2-mile segment is more important for the city to build after the initial Mississippi River to Lake Street segment?
Last edited by twincitizen on June 12th, 2013, 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tcmetro
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby Tcmetro » June 12th, 2013, 2:45 pm

I would have to say that Central is more important, mainly because Central NE is a stronger corridor than Nicollet south of Lake Street. Also, riders between downtown or Lake Street and the south part of Nicollet may be more inclined to use the Orange Line once the service levels are improved.

David Greene
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby David Greene » June 12th, 2013, 4:44 pm

Broadway. From an equity standpoint there really is no question.

The north side desperately needs better transit. Chicago-Freemont aBRT will help but the streetcar is also important from an encoomic development standpoint.

I don't think there's any reason not to build the whole line right off. It doesn't make sense to build something not connected to the Blue Line.

When the political will is there, the funding appears.

twincitizen
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby twincitizen » June 12th, 2013, 5:15 pm

Is anyone else a little bothered that Hennepin County is about to reconstruct Washington Avenue between Hennepin & 5th Ave with ZERO accommodations for enhanced transit, either bus or streetcar? Nobody wants to delay a project for something that might never happen, but we have got to get our branches of local government talking to each other. We just fully reconstructed Nicollet between Lake and 40th with zero consideration of streetcars or aBRT. Completely unacceptable. It's like these people don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.


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