Minnesota Valley regional rail (Shakopee, Mankato, beyond)

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MNdible
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Minnesota Valley regional rail (Shakopee, Mankato, beyond)

Postby MNdible » September 18th, 2012, 9:24 am

From the "Morning Take" political newsletter:

BUZZ: A new effort to have a train connecting The Depot in St. Paul to Shakopee attractions Mystic Lake, Valley Fair and Canterbury Downs will conduct a tour today with legislators as invited guests.

Does anybody know anything about this? Would this be the Dan Patch Corridor, and if so, why would it be starting from SPUD?
Last edited by mulad on September 16th, 2015, 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changing thread title

Tcmetro
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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby Tcmetro » September 18th, 2012, 10:04 am

There is a line that runs roughly parallel to the Mississippi/Minnesota River. The line comes very close to Valley Fair and Canterbury Downs, but it is a few miles from the casino.

Personally, I think this is a terrible idea.

nordeast homer
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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby nordeast homer » September 18th, 2012, 10:13 am

So in winter months you'd have 3 people riding this thing? The driver, the security officer, and the person who mistakenly thought it was the central corridor LRT.

mulad
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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby mulad » September 18th, 2012, 11:50 am

I can't say I've heard anything about this, but Mn/DOT does have a Twin Cities to Mankato line (the "Minnesota Valley Line") as a "Tier 1" route in their statewide rail plan, meaning that it's targeted for implementation by 2030 (Same as Duluth, Rochester, Eau Claire, and increased service to Fargo).

Anyway, for a service to Shakopee, starting at SPUD is really the only way to go with the way tracks are laid out today. There is a junction in Savage that could be used to head toward Minneapolis on the Dan Patch line, though the current layout requires reversing, so double-ended trains would be needed. The swing bridge over the Minnesota River there also hasn't seen any traffic for around a decade at this point, so it may not really be functional. I'm sure a better junction could be built there with a new bridge, but that's expensive and there appear to be wildlife refuges to weave around.

Current tracks would also require reversing again to actually get into Minneapolis by running up past I-394 and then weaving through Theodore Wirth Park to get into downtown. The simpler thing would just be to stay south of I-394 by rebuilding the southeast quadrant of the junction by Cedar Lake in St. Louis Park and heading into town on BNSF's Wayzata Subdivision.



I suppose you might only need to build something as far north as MN-7, where a train could meet up with the Southwest LRT, but even that would probably be tricky since the platforms would be relatively far apart if they were built along existing tracks.

Presumably, this confab would also talk about a new route in Shakopee to reach Canterbury Park and the Casino.

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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby mattaudio » September 18th, 2012, 12:09 pm

The plan to rebuild the junction from MN&S to Wayzata Sub downtown-bound is actually going to happen and has been planned as part of the TC&W reroute off the Kenilworth corridor. Additionally, I think TC&W owns the MN River bridge since they figured they might want to connect to Port of Savage, but recent plans sound like they won't be heading south.

I always figured it would make sense for a Mankato regional line to turn north on MN&S to MMM then through-route to SPUD, but with the current track quality/config it would make more sense to use U.P. through to SPUD then take BNSF Midway Sub back to MMM if they want to connect there.

Suburban Outcast
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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby Suburban Outcast » February 5th, 2013, 4:32 pm

Since Northstar's thread turned into a discussion about the Dan Patch Line and a regional link to Mankato, I figured I would revive this thread for the Dan Patch Commuter Rail (going to Shakopee) and Mankato Regional Rail link instead of creating a new one.
Anyways here is the map I made (to start out with, changes and probably more stations will be added)
Image
(larger version: https://i.imgur.com/sRioPX0.png)
If any of you are more knowledgeable in Illustrator and Photoshop (like Visualizer), feel free to make a more descriptive map because I just started using Illustrator a couple weeks ago, so I am still learning about the program.
So, what are your thoughts on the line? (anything from frequencies, station locations, etc.).

mattaudio
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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby mattaudio » February 5th, 2013, 5:35 pm

I like it. A few things:

- The MN&S crosses the TC&W/Green Line about half way between the proposed Louisiana and Wooddale stations. Not sure if this would be a feasible connection unless somehow my crazy TC&W reroute proposal goes through, moving the rails under Brunswick Ave and crossing the Green Line real close to Wooddale. That would be legit and somehow I have to imagine not much more expensive than the current two contenders for the TC&W reroute.

- Since it seems likely that what has been dubbed the "iron triangle" will get built to connect MN&S and BNSF, makes sense to route any passenger rail east from there. I think it would be great to have a stop near West End/Cedar Lake Rd, and this is actually where I thought it would be relatively easy to build a LRT spur out to this location (although I envisioned it would cut a half mile north along Park Center Dr then travel west along the 394 corridor). I think West End would be a great funnel location down the line that would interline commuter/regional rail towards Minneapolis, providing relatively frequent service between West End and the Downtowns.

- What ever happened to that Shakopee proposal? I wonder how much Mystic would throw in considering they seem to run an extensive bus network. If this was a stop on the way to Mankato, it could possibly make sense. Mystic and Canterbury would still need shuttle buses to connect with the UP line. Finally, I hope any stations along this (and all other commuter/regional corridors) would be in traditional downtowns rather than greenfield park and rides.

Suburban Outcast
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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby Suburban Outcast » February 5th, 2013, 9:11 pm

Having a station at the West End would be good, I would like to see a station like this in Edina (doesn't need a triple-track layout though unless freight trains would use that as a bypass): Image
If they actually built stations in Savage and Shakopee (near Valleyfair), it would probably be large surface parking lots so if they did end the commuter line at West Bloomington, they could minimize sprawl and promote more in-fill development within the developed suburbs (since they always use more density). A West Bloomington station could be connected to aBRT on American Blvd. The Edina station could be near Vernon Ave S. If there ever was a line that went to Wayzata, the West End station could see more potential given there are workers commuting there from from the affluent lake commuties and Minnetonka.

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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby Chauncey87 » February 6th, 2013, 12:00 am

I love this idea. The tracks and space are pretty much all there. However I just do not know the commuter patterns in the area really well and really doubt to many people live in Shakopee and work in down town St. Paul. I would prefer this train go to MPLS first then continue into StP. I wonder if Mystic Lake would ever build there own park n ride at the casino and run shuttles to the train station?
This is one of the rare cases I would enjoy to see a trolley line. Build the station in downtown Shakopee. Then run the trolley line to Valley Fair and Canterbury. Both have huge parking lots that are only full on certin days. So they could be used as the park and ride lots. :D

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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby Suburban Outcast » February 6th, 2013, 3:29 am

Updated map with a mixture of future and fantasy BRT/rail corridors, I forgot to add Empire Builder service to the U of M Station. Maybe the HSR could stop at the Interchange via a stop at U of M station (if student ridership for HSR was high enough), but the Empire Builder is probably better off bypassing the Interchange.
Image
(larger size: https://i.imgur.com/kuUZwkz.png)

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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby Tom H. » February 6th, 2013, 9:56 am

Long term, I'd love to see a line like this continued on to Worthington and Sioux City and/or Sioux Falls (my hometown). The state of South Dakota has no passenger rail service (except for a tourist train near Mt. Rushmore).

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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby fehler » February 6th, 2013, 2:34 pm

I'm looking at this line, and it mostly looks fine (could even connect to New Ulm). However, for a short period it goes _through_ Shakopee, rather then around it like most rail corridors. I can't see this line being practical without a bypass, and setting a precedent by building one bypass will cause every future transit project to be held up with more communities demanding more and more bypasses. Best to bridge over the Minnesota near the Highway 101 bridge, and utilize the Minnesota River Bluffs LRT Regional Trail as a connection.

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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby mattaudio » February 6th, 2013, 4:07 pm

Isn't the point of a rail line that it connects cities instead of bypassing them? Granted, the UP in Shakopee is one degree removed from street running and trains are very slow, but I think it would make more sense to invest in some grade separation and other fixes downtown that would allow for faster operations without slicing the downtown in two.

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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby mamundsen » February 6th, 2013, 4:28 pm

I think this would be a VERY hard sell to the SLP NIMBY'ers that are putting up a big stink about the SW LRT. Would there be another alternative to continue the SW LRT south to Shakopee?

eluko
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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby eluko » February 6th, 2013, 4:48 pm

I have to agree with fehler. Having the line run through Savage on route to Mankato might be a bit to much of a detour.
I think a bridge closer to Chaska would be the best balance between service and speed. If Shakopee were to get rail, an east/west LRT line down 13 or 42 might not be a bad idea once the red and orange lines are built to tie them together.

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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby mplser » February 6th, 2013, 6:18 pm

why would an amtrak train stop in midway? are they keeping their old station there just in case, or what?

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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby Silophant » February 6th, 2013, 7:11 pm

I don't think Outcast is showing Midway Station on his map, but rather a new station that would be built in the railyard behind TCF Bank Stadium. Seems like a reasonable idea to me, as UMN students would be big users of a regional rail system.
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Suburban Outcast
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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby Suburban Outcast » February 6th, 2013, 11:57 pm

I don't think Outcast is showing Midway Station on his map, but rather a new station that would be built in the railyard behind TCF Bank Stadium. Seems like a reasonable idea to me, as UMN students would be big users of a regional rail system.
You're right on the dot. Plus it could be used as a stop for the Empire Builder (while still bypassing the Interchange, but still makes a shorter trip than taking the Green Line from the SPUD if you really want to get to DT Mpls). The Chicago HSR could end at the Interchange as well given it doesn't have to worry about continuing towards Fargo. Basically the main stations for the commuter and regional rail network would be the Interchange, U of M (TCF Bank) Station, and the SPUD given they can serve the densest and largest employment centers in the central cities.

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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby TWA » February 7th, 2013, 9:06 am

Question: would another line seriously be run to the interchange station? Or would the most likely (and cost effective) answer be to end the rail at say an Eden Prairie station where people can transfer to the LRT network?

People are already freaking out about a LRT line running through their neighborhood- how would they react to another line? Also would the inside-the-loop portion of the line cannibalize ridership from the SW LRT line or would new people ride rail that would not normally take the SW line?

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Re: Shakopee Rail?

Postby mamundsen » February 7th, 2013, 9:15 am

Question: would another line seriously be run to the interchange station? Or would the most likely (and cost effective) answer be to end the rail at say an Eden Prairie station where people can transfer to the LRT network?

People are already freaking out about a LRT line running through their neighborhood- how would they react to another line? Also would the inside-the-loop portion of the line cannibalize ridership from the SW LRT line or would new people ride rail that would not normally take the SW line?
My thoughts exactly!


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