Northern Lights Express

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
Silophant
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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby Silophant » October 15th, 2015, 7:41 am

Not directly related to NLX, but:

Jefferson Lines is increasing Minneapolis-Duluth service to three daily round trips.

Looks like there's demand, even at normal highway speeds.
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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby HuskyGrad » October 15th, 2015, 8:26 am

Not directly related to NLX, but:

Jefferson Lines is increasing Minneapolis-Duluth service to three daily round trips.

Looks like there's demand, even at normal highway speeds.
I could've sworn there was three round trips back in 2012 when I lived in Duluth.

mattaudio
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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby mattaudio » October 15th, 2015, 8:31 am

While West Duluth is cool in a weird way, their Duluth terminal is over 4 miles from downtown.
https://goo.gl/maps/gAAFhp5JbNz

Good thing they're moving downtown.

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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby EOst » October 15th, 2015, 8:44 am

I've taken that bus to Duluth, and that terminal really does feel like the middle of nowhere. I was shocked when the drive to downtown Duluth was so short.

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Tiller
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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby Tiller » November 1st, 2015, 5:05 am

So I refreshed myself on this/checked up on it (NLX), though there doesn't seem to be anything new (sorry for those of you who hoped that little red paper meant an update).

http://abcnewspapers.com/2015/05/15/pla ... s-express/
The environmental work is expected to be completed in February 2016, while the ridership, revenue and cost-benefit study, which will include capital and operation cost estimates and the number of trips each day, is anticipated to be done this summer, Loetterle said.

“We are shooting for July,” he said.
Well maybe we'll be suprised this christmas, with him turning out to be australian.

grant1simons2
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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby grant1simons2 » November 11th, 2015, 5:32 pm

Here's the most recent memo/update

http://northernlightsexpress.org/joomla ... -10-22.pdf

Mentions a preliminary approval of the NLX Service Plan by the FRA, expected to be released November 19th.

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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby mulad » November 11th, 2015, 6:23 pm

Argh, a (presumed) degradation to four round-trips per day, rather than the eight I've always talked about. Still better than most intercity rail service in the U.S., but pretty bottom-rung when comparing to most of Europe.

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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby grant1simons2 » November 11th, 2015, 6:41 pm

I actually think four is going to be the perfect number to start with, since it can really test demand. A lot better than 2. There's always room to add more in the future if demand is higher than first believed.

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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby Wedgeguy » November 16th, 2015, 2:49 pm

I actually think four is going to be the perfect number to start with, since it can really test demand. A lot better than 2. There's always room to add more in the future if demand is higher than first believed.
I have to agree whole heartedly with you there.

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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby mulad » December 16th, 2015, 3:15 pm

MnDOT has issued a press release stating that new cost estimates for NLX bring the price down to between $500 and $600 million. The release only mentions speeds up to 90 mph, though.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/newsrels/15/12/16nlx.html

grant1simons2
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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby grant1simons2 » December 16th, 2015, 3:26 pm

How likely is it to receive federal funding? Also is it possible it can support 120 mph in the future?

I seriously can not wait to be able to possibly go from North Loop to Superior Street on a nice train for a day trip. Both areas are taking full advantage of their historical warehouses.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby VacantLuxuries » December 16th, 2015, 3:39 pm

It was on an FRA list of ten or so routes being considered for funding several years ago, I thought.

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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby acs » December 16th, 2015, 4:37 pm

This article has more info:

http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/12/16 ... speed-rail

The savings come from some pretty big cuts;
-top speed dropped from 110 to 90 mph (was originally 125)
-daily trains cut from 8 to 4
-total travel time up from under 2 to over 2.5 hours
-no additional track laid which would "lessen the number of places where freight trains would have to move out of the passenger train's way, he added." (did they learn nothing from Northstar?)
-projected fares in the $25-30 range

I'm sorry guys, but this seems like the last desperate attempt to revive a project that has almost no interest or support at any level, even though it's been shovel ready for a while. The project manager says they expect the feds to cover 80% of the cost, yet the problems with that are A) there is no federal money set aside for passenger rail right now or in the near future, and B) the FRA would only cover it if it could be shown to cover its operating costs, which was an iffy proposition at 110 mph and almost laughable at 90 mph. At what point do people in charge start realizing this doesn't pass the common sense test? I just hope its not after it's up and running with a fraction of it's projected ridership like we did with Northstar. Politically, there's no chance with NLX to go back and drop another $500 mil on this project to maybe save it.

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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby grant1simons2 » December 16th, 2015, 4:43 pm

No interest or support at any level...?

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby VacantLuxuries » December 16th, 2015, 4:53 pm

https://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0554

A sizable list of federally assisted passenger rail projects.
At what point do people in charge start realizing this doesn't pass the common sense test?
Considering common sense is nearly a useless phrase since it can be interpreted to mean anything and everything, it simultaneously passes the test with flying colors or would have failed it even if this was a 100% federally funded Shinkansen depending on your personal biases.

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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby acs » December 16th, 2015, 4:55 pm

This isn't the first time this project has been cut. In fact, it was chopped from 125 mph service to 110 mph in 2010, with a resulting capital cost and operating margin decrease. The EIS has been finished on that project since 2013, and the result from politicians has been... crickets. Oh, and Anoka county dropped out too.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby VacantLuxuries » December 16th, 2015, 5:02 pm

The same thing has happened with high speed corridors throughout the country. It's difficult to build any sort of high speed rail when we've neglected even simple infrastructure upgrades for more than half a century.

Anoka made a big deal about it when they did, too. This project continued on because no one wants to go to Anoka on the train that already exists, let alone to get there faster.

I've always said that the real pitch for the NLX has needed to be that it's an MSP to Hinckley train that happens to also be a Duluth to Hinckley train. Any other stop is just lip service to keep rural areas from protesting over nothing like communities along the Zip Line are.

acs
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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby acs » December 16th, 2015, 5:05 pm

https://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0554

A sizable list of federally assisted passenger rail projects.
At what point do people in charge start realizing this doesn't pass the common sense test?
Considering common sense is nearly a useless phrase since it can be interpreted to mean anything and everything, it simultaneously passes the test with flying colors or would have failed it even if this was a 100% federally funded Shinkansen depending on your personal biases.
Are you really trying to say that a train which takes longer than driving, goes to a metro of just 280,000 people and declining, costs 2-3x as much as gas, has a lower projected ridership than the Northstar even through the rosiest of glasses, and would have to fight for virtually nonexistent high speed rail funding despite the fact it no longer fits the fed's definition somehow makes sense?

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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby VacantLuxuries » December 16th, 2015, 5:12 pm

Build it to Grand Casino's front door. They have bus shuttles already, you're telling me you don't think they'd heavily promote this as a convenient way to gamble without the drive? Not to mention it would put the Duluth to MSP airport shuttles out of business by cutting their rates in half.

Again, an MSP to Duluth train under those circumstances is foolish. But if they build the Hinckley station next to the casino, trips between the end points and Hinckley would subsidize the rest of the route.

acs
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Re: Northern Lights Express

Postby acs » December 16th, 2015, 5:16 pm

The same thing has happened with high speed corridors throughout the country. It's difficult to build any sort of high speed rail when we've neglected even simple infrastructure upgrades for more than half a century.

Anoka made a big deal about it when they did, too. This project continued on because no one wants to go to Anoka on the train that already exists, let alone to get there faster.

I've always said that the real pitch for the NLX has needed to be that it's an MSP to Hinckley train that happens to also be a Duluth to Hinckley train. Any other stop is just lip service to keep rural areas from protesting over nothing like communities along the Zip Line are.
Look, I'm not saying I don't support statewide passenger rail. Nothing would make me happier than a statewide system from fargo to lacrosse. But it has to be at least remotely competitive with our other transportation options or it's just a waste. Done right, a statewide system could put to bed once and for all the metro vs greater MN divide over transit funding. Done wrong, it just pisses off everyone, Minneapolis Liberals and rural republicans alike.

What MNDOT needs to do is step back quit trying to go it alone on this one project, even though it is farther along than all the others. Politically, it's going to take a bold campaign incorporating a push for all of the state rail projects at once, from mankato to NLX to Zip Rail to Northstar, and only then does it have a chance for the dedicated funding such projects would truly need (except for Zip Rail).


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