Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

[RailBaronYarr]

Or we could get serious, and build a better shorter line. Cut and cover under Broadway with two or three urban stations. Stations at North Memorial, 36th, Robbinsdale, and Bass Lake. No need for this to go outside the beltway and serve farm fields.

I would also have put one at North Commons/Broadway Curve Area top serve the more inner neighborhoods and some of the development going on in that area.

[woofner]

I assume by "serious", you mean a line that would be twice as expensive on a per-mile basis and wouldn't qualify for federal funding?

I think it probably could have been federally funded with an emphasis on community/economic development if they had originally incorporated a truncated line as an alternative. But the purpose of this line from Hennepin County's perspective has always been to benefit suburbanites, either commuters or developers. They were all too happy to hear the concerns of strip mall owners on West Broadway that 2% of their parking might go away.

[mattaudio]

Something like this?
http://goo.gl/maps/Bp98O

[alleycat]

I've talked to Barb Johnson at length about the Penn routing and there was no political will and an extremely divided population. The only hope would have been GV denying the locally preferred alternative. Johnson and Don Samuels answer every time has been that the better option is streetcar on Broadway with some kind of connection to the Golden Valley Rd station. I don't know how that would work without skipping Penn and Broadway again. I guess they could possibly go up Broadway and then down to GV Rd and then meet back where GV and Broadway meet. Broadway streetcar, aBRT on Penn and a Plymouth Avenue station are the real points of debate at this point.

This same conversation about the wrong routing will come up at each step along the way. That's fun and all, but how can we shift the debate now for future build-outs of LRT, aBRT and streetcar? I think this ship has sailed unless someone decides to sue the Met Council for lack of equity in building LRT lines. Personally that is not my opinion since North will have 4-5 stations (I include GV as a North stop since it's 1/5 of mile from the border) between SW and Bottineau.j

Edit: Wait. What would the point of a Subway line under Broadway be if it skips the Emerson/Broadway to Lyndale/Broadway businesses? I do see more opportunity near Penn and the curve, but If we're going to be theoretical, we should go under Washington or Lyndale and follow the entire Broadway corridor.

[dingo]

I just dont know why at Golden Valley Rd they dont just head NW through Glen View Terrace Park, onto Theo Wirth Parkway to Bottineau. Right next to where North Memorial is.

From there stay on Bottineau to 36th Ave where you head east and reconnect with the current alignment. Is that too easy?

[mattaudio]

Dontcha know it's cheapest and easiest to build LRT on the same railroad right of way neighborhoods turned their backs on as they developed. Integrating LRT with neighborhoods is just too much work.

[alleycat]

I just dont know why at Golden Valley Rd they dont just head NW through Glen View Terrace Park, onto Theo Wirth Parkway to Bottineau. Right next to where North Memorial is.

From there stay on Bottineau to 36th Ave where you head east and reconnect with the current alignment. Is that too easy?

Not sure how they would jump up from a trench to the grade of the park. I guess you could tunnel, but we all know tunnels are a no, no.

[RailBaronYarr]

I've talked to Barb Johnson at length about the Penn routing and there was no political will and an extremely divided population. .

I mean, this is the answer, every time. It's not because the alternate route was better (even if it may cost less). Our metro area lacks the political will to actually do something.

[alleycat]

I've talked to Barb Johnson at length about the Penn routing and there was no political will and an extremely divided population. .

I mean, this is the answer, every time. It's not because the alternate route was better (even if it may cost less). Our metro area lacks the political will to actually do something.

The irony of being willing to knock down houses everywhere in north except for the one place where we had a chance for huge change. Heck they could've moved all the houses onto any of the 450+ vacant lots in north.

[woofner]

Johnson and Don Samuels answer every time has been that the better option is streetcar on Broadway with some kind of connection to the Golden Valley Rd station.

I know you're just repeating what they're saying but the map in the 2030 Transportation Policy Plan shows it extending to Robbinsdale. I know that doesn't mean it will, but I think it would be bizarre to either route it on GV Rd or route it back down Zenith or something to the Golden Valley station. Now that you mention it, though, it would be cool to replace the Thomas branch of the 19 with a bus that ran down Zenith and maybe Victory or something further north for better route spacing - not sure where the termini would be though.

What would the point of a Subway line under Broadway be if it skips the Emerson/Broadway to Lyndale/Broadway businesses?

I agree with your point about not retreading the route selection, but before zipping my lips I'd like to add that I assumed an LRT subway stop at Emerson/Fremont/W Broadway, and a BRT stop at W Broadway/I-94. That would make for very rich transit options for the strip you mention. Also while I won't retread my route preference, I reserve the right to crassly and crudely criticize the LPA.

[alleycat]

Yeah I don't where they get the idea that it would happen or make sense. The 2030 TPP's option is much more logical.

I in no way supported this route, but it's what we're getting. Believe me, I'd rather walk two blocks to a station at Penn and Broadway. Instead I'll have to bike a few more blocks to GV and Wirth. If I'm heading to downtown I'll hope on the streetcar. If I'm heading to MSP I'll take the blue line. That is of course If I still own my house up here when it's built, which I'm guessing will be 2020 unless the transit tax is increased.

[tabletop]

I'm not too disappointed with the chosen routing. I think it will offer great interurban connections with future build outs of the LRT system. There are a lot of people who live off Olson Memorial who are transit dependent and with the SW Corridor connections to Bryn-mar, Harrison and the job corridors in the SW, the Bottineau could set the stage for an amazingly connected region if future LRT lines go up say N Lyndale or 94. It would even leave the area open for tunneling (dare i say... if that's a direction our transit planners ever decide to take). It's not the optimal solution, but how often is it with fierce competition for funding and a political environment built upon job security do we ever get the desired outcome to bring our great city to the next level. In other words, I'll take it.

[seanrichardryan]

Brooklyn Park has held off on developing their potato fields waiting for just this type of opportunity. Running LRT into the Arbor Lakes Mall was not going to create a neighborhood, but these undeveloped agricultural fields actually have a chance for some of the best sensible new TOD development in the cities. Oh, and Target is a 5 minute walk from the line.

[mattaudio]

Greenfield TOD is a waste of resources.

[612transplant]

I've talked to Barb Johnson at length about the Penn routing and there was no political will and an extremely divided population. .

I mean, this is the answer, every time. It's not because the alternate route was better (even if it may cost less). Our metro area lacks the political will to actually do something.

The irony of being willing to knock down houses everywhere in north except for the one place where we had a chance for huge change. Heck they could've moved all the houses onto any of the 450+ vacant lots in north.

You don't make a distinction between knocking down vacant houses and knocking down houses where people are actually living, then?

[RailBaronYarr]

Brooklyn Park has held off on developing their potato fields waiting for just this type of opportunity. Running LRT into the Arbor Lakes Mall was not going to create a neighborhood, but these undeveloped agricultural fields actually have a chance for some of the best sensible new TOD development in the cities. Oh, and Target is a 5 minute walk from the line.

I'm confused how an area with streets, water, sewer, electric, etc in place already is less likely (or efficient) for further infill development than a farm. Good for Brooklyn Park to hold off on developing these - perhaps had they developed it as a walkable, compact, intense area already this line would have made sense to come out to it. Now we're just baking on the city and private sector delivering on it within a reasonable time so we can start getting ridership on the extension that can support the op/cap expenses (which is a pretty big risk given what we've seen on the Hiawatha Line).

[MNdible]

(which is a pretty big risk given what we've seen on the Hiawatha Line).

Besides a line that has greatly exceeded its ridership projections and generated significant development in an area that would otherwise be unattractive surplus industrial land, what exactly have we seen on the Hiawatha Line?

[lordmoke]

Fun fact on the undeveloped land: Target owns almost all of the empty land the LRT will run through. In fact, they own almost all of the land north of 610 and west of their current building. I recommend looking at it on the Hennepin County property tax map- it's a little insane.

[alleycat]

The irony of being willing to knock down houses everywhere in north except for the one place where we had a chance for huge change. Heck they could've moved all the houses onto any of the 450+ vacant lots in north.

You don't make a distinction between knocking down vacant houses and knocking down houses where people are actually living, then?

I worded that poorly. I would've only supported building exclusively on Penn if they moved the viable properties. I would've preferred the Penn/Oliver alternative.

I follow the city's demolitions closely. They do not make sound judgements on what properties to demo. So now we have a boat load of vacant properties.

[RailBaronYarr]

(which is a pretty big risk given what we've seen on the Hiawatha Line).

Besides a line that has greatly exceeded its ridership projections and generated significant development in an area that would otherwise be unattractive surplus industrial land, what exactly have we seen on the Hiawatha Line?

Ridership projections can easily be exceeded if set correctly. I'm not calling the Hiawatha Line a failure by any stretch - thank god it beat ridership expectations or the anti-transit folks would be out in full-force.

But given the amount of money that went in to building it (again, as opposed to another form of transit in the same corridor, and not saying I'm proposing that's what we SHOULD have done them instead), and all the benefits people tout about rail transit vs. bus/etc, there has been very little impact on neighborhood/business changes around most of the stations. I understand the crash occurred 4 years after the line opened, but housing near transit has proved to retain value (and even continue construction) across the country during the downturn. Also keep in mind that most of the 'TOD' that did occur required further subsidization, which begs the question - which are we subsidizing, the transit or the economic development? I fully admit that part of the issue is that the line is situated in the middle of a 4-6 lane highway with terrible pedestrian facilities, something that has certainly impacted use and development (which again begs the question why we'd repeat that mistake with the Bottineau line).

I don't doubt that a bunch of apartments will spring up on the fields in Brooklyn Park, each with at least an underground parking spot per unit plus a heft amount of surface parking for each building. They'll have slightly better 'urban' (ha) design than most suburban apartments do today, but they won't integrate right in to a walkable neighborhood and this any retail, groceries, business, etc will need to rely heavily on people arriving by car, so we'll get a VERY watered down version of good development. Plus big (free) parking ramps directly adjacent to the station for the commuters in the area to drive to and save themselves some time coming in to the city.