Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
min-chi-cbus
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby min-chi-cbus » March 13th, 2013, 10:50 am

If it were privately financed they'd charge to park there instead of being free. How else would they recoup their costs?

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » March 13th, 2013, 11:45 am

Makes sense to me! Why should someone walking up to a transit station subsidize someone who needs to store their car at the transit station, oftentimes in multimillion dollar structured parking facilities?

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby woofner » March 13th, 2013, 12:09 pm

What a joke. I like that they weren't able to find any examples of anyone stupid enough to build light rail through this much parkland. The closest was Newark, but that was a legacy streetcar line and it also serves a neighborhood that's about a zillion times denser than Homewood.

I'm looking forward to seeing whether they propose park-and-rides. Minneapolis wouldn't allow them, but these stations are just outside city limits, so technically its not their call. Of course, in this case no one is going to be walking to these stations so if there's no park-and-ride, the stations will be useless.
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 13th, 2013, 12:30 pm

I'm glad Mpls is not allowing P&Rs for their transit stations. Once you allow it, it immediately stops being as useful of a transit oriented development as it could be. If a 20,000+ sqft parcel directly abutting the station is dedicated (mostly) to cars, how will the area ever thrive for people walking, biking, etc??

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » March 13th, 2013, 1:09 pm

Even though they're in Golden Valley, I'm pretty sure MPRB would have input since it's in Wirth Park.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Andrew_F » March 13th, 2013, 2:37 pm

I would be really, really frustrated if they tried to build P&Rs in Wirth. What a load of crap.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alleycat » March 14th, 2013, 12:46 am

Redisciple, Homewood is over 10k per square mile just north of Plymouth. You're telling me that no one is going to walk down from Willard-Homewood or take a connector bus and then ride the LRT to MOA or the U?

As for the park and ride, personally I'll bike, but many a GV and a few of my fellow northsiders will. I'm still reeling from this not hitting Penn/Broadway as I live just north of there, but I see a lot of good in these designs and the savings from using the existing trench.
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » March 14th, 2013, 7:50 am

Do one-time construction savings even matter if the operational cost per rider will be higher (due to lower ridership)? What about the missed opportunity for economic development and revitalization in the heart of NoMi?

I'm glad they are still considering building stations at both Plymouth Ave and Golden Valley Road. At least we can try to salvage some walkable potential out of this line.

I'm still dumbfounded by the lack of a station near North Memorial and that shopping center (likely at 36th for bus/road connections). It's around .8 miles south of the Robbinsdale Station (42nd Ave). As it stands, there will be a 2.5 mile gap between stations, and 3 miles if GVR Station is not built. How is that acceptable stop spacing for LRT?

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby woofner » March 14th, 2013, 10:28 am

Redisciple, Homewood is over 10k per square mile just north of Plymouth. You're telling me that no one is going to walk down from Willard-Homewood or take a connector bus and then ride the LRT to MOA or the U?

As for the park and ride, personally I'll bike, but many a GV and a few of my fellow northsiders will. I'm still reeling from this not hitting Penn/Broadway as I live just north of there, but I see a lot of good in these designs and the savings from using the existing trench.
You're pushing it by claiming a density of over 10k/sq mi - I'd like to see your source on that. I'm surprised at the gross population density in Homewood since the household density is quite low, which of course means the family size in the area is much larger than typical for Mpls. I think it would be great if parents in the area encourage their kids to take LRT to the Mall or Downtown but I kind of doubt it will happen. Anyway I doubt if the density exceeds 10k/sq mi anywhere along the park.

But regardless, 10k/sq mi is not a particularly high density, and of course these stations will only have the benefit of half of the area at that density than a different station would have. I believe the 38th & 46th St stations along Hiawatha are around 8k/sq mi for the most part, but even still they have close to twice the potential riders for the simple fact that they are in walking distance for 360 degrees around the station (though it's less walkable than it should be of course).

This is why I expect the Wirth Park stations to get fewer avg weekday boardings even than the 38th & 46th St Hiawatha stations (1386 & 1526 respectively - note that these stations get more boardings than Franklin & Cedar, which are in much higher-density areas but are more isolated geographically). I think they would be lucky to get 1000/day. Since in my opinion the biggest issue with our transit system is coverage, and light rail better addresses issues of speed, reliability, and capacity, I think it would be more sensible to build twice as much BRT even if it gets half the ridership per station (which it probably won't).
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alleycat » March 14th, 2013, 12:02 pm

You're pushing it by claiming a density of over 10k/sq mi - I'd like to see your source on that. I'm surprised at the gross population density in Homewood since the household density is quite low, which of course means the family size in the area is much larger than typical for Mpls. I think it would be great if parents in the area encourage their kids to take LRT to the Mall or Downtown but I kind of doubt it will happen. Anyway I doubt if the density exceeds 10k/sq mi anywhere along the park.

But regardless, 10k/sq mi is not a particularly high density, and of course these stations will only have the benefit of half of the area at that density than a different station would have. I believe the 38th & 46th St stations along Hiawatha are around 8k/sq mi for the most part, but even still they have close to twice the potential riders for the simple fact that they are in walking distance for 360 degrees around the station (though it's less walkable than it should be of course).

This is why I expect the Wirth Park stations to get fewer avg weekday boardings even than the 38th & 46th St Hiawatha stations (1386 & 1526 respectively - note that these stations get more boardings than Franklin & Cedar, which are in much higher-density areas but are more isolated geographically). I think they would be lucky to get 1000/day. Since in my opinion the biggest issue with our transit system is coverage, and light rail better addresses issues of speed, reliability, and capacity, I think it would be more sensible to build twice as much BRT even if it gets half the ridership per station (which it probably won't).
It was posted on the density discussion a while back. DaPerpKazoo provided a google map. There are two census tracts in North that are over 10K: one right by me in Jordan and the other being Willard-Homewood between Golden Valley Rd and Plymouth. Both of those tracts were hard hit by the tornado, so I'm not sure if the numbers stand up. Just a guess, but the surprising density of the those two single-family areas is a product of narrow streets and small lot size in Jordan and low vacancy rate in Homewood.

Light rail has not been built next to particularly dense areas on any of the lines except the northern portions of Hiawatha. Even the CC only has one neighborhood directly adjoining it that has more than 10k, though it's commercial density and potential makes up for that. I think worse choices were made for Bottineau and SW, but I want to advocate for the best outcome now that I'm more involved in the neighborhood politics up here.

Many power brokers up here didn't want to see or deal with knocking down 100 homes. I simply think that the planning process made Penn an excuse to build in the trench. We have a major issue with vacant land, couldn't we have moved the good properties to vacant lots? It would have cost a lot, but when you're talking about $1 billion+, it would have been a rounding error. Or we could have avoided the mess and tunneled under Broadway a.k.a. the only business corridor in Minneapolis without at least one 10K tract next to it.

As for the mall, have you ever taken the 5? It's packed with teenagers heading south either to downtown or MOA. Combine that with many 19 riders who now don't have to transfer and you will have ridership even if it's not my choice for alignment.
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby FISHMANPET » March 14th, 2013, 12:39 pm

Many power brokers up here didn't want to see or deal with knocking down 100 homes. I simply think that the planning process made Penn an excuse to build in the trench. We have a major issue with vacant land, couldn't we have moved the good properties to vacant lots? It would have cost a lot, but when you're talking about $1 billion+, it would have been a rounding error. Or we could have avoided the mess and tunneled under Broadway a.k.a. the only business corridor in Minneapolis without at least one 10K tract next to it.
I posed this same question to some Met Council planner years ago at some event at the Humphrey institute, and he basically said it's politically impossible to do something like that' You're talking about a forced migration of hundreds of homes, and even though it's different from something like destroying Frogtown for I-94, it's also really easy to see it as exactly the same.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby woofner » March 14th, 2013, 12:50 pm

DaPerpKazoo provided a google map. There are two census tracts in North that are over 10K: one right by me in Jordan and the other being Willard-Homewood between Golden Valley Rd and Plymouth.
I'm not sure DaPerpKazoo was accurate with that one; or else possibly he was using 2000 census data or Met Council estimates rather than 2010 census data. Tract 27 (south of GV, north of Plymouth, west of Penn) had 2583 people in 2010, making for a density of 8610 per sq mi. Tract 20 (south of W Broadway, north of GV, west of Penn, east of Xerxes) had 2227 in 2010, so density was 6959 per sq mi. Tract 32 (south of Plymouth, north of Olson, west of Penn) had 1812 people, density 7550 per sq mi (technically a bit less but I excluded the tract's sections of parkland). This is still more than I thought, and it really is due to a family size about twice the average for the city as a whole. (you can check my math using the Met Council's Make-a-Map tool at http://giswebsite.metc.state.mn.us/publicmaps/makeamap).

I wasn't going to get into it but a better indicator of transit use is residential household density, that is, the number of households in a given area divided by its residential land area. The reason being that the majority of transit trips are taken for work purposes, so it doesn't really matter if there are 2000 people in a census tract if half of them are children. And, of course, the density figure will be skewed by land that isn't used for urban purposes. You can see this measure on the CNT's HTA Index tool at http://htaindex.cnt.org/map/. And I guess I should clarify that while I'm sure that some kids will take LRT downtown or to the mall, I doubt that it will happen on a large enough scale to make a significant impact on boardings.
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alleycat » March 14th, 2013, 12:51 pm

I posed this same question to some Met Council planner years ago at some event at the Humphrey institute, and he basically said it's politically impossible to do something like that' You're talking about a forced migration of hundreds of homes, and even though it's different from something like destroying Frogtown for I-94, it's also really easy to see it as exactly the same.
The irony of my comment is that there is the political will to knockdown that many homes in the name of revitalization, just not in one location. CPED seems to come to the Jordan housing board every month with another list of 10 properties to demo. The city actually included 7 or so properties on the Green Homes North list of potential locations to build. Knock a house down and build a "green" one, that's really environmentally friendly... Luckily we're starting to build a structure of rehab first in the single family housing stock, fill in vacant lots slowly but surely and build density along Penn/Lowry/Broadway. (Sorry, way off topic.)
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alleycat » March 14th, 2013, 12:56 pm

I wasn't going to get into it but a better indicator of transit use is residential household density, that is, the number of households in a given area divided by its residential land area. The reason being that the majority of transit trips are taken for work purposes, so it doesn't really matter if there are 2000 people in a census tract if half of them are children. And, of course, the density figure will be skewed by land that isn't used for urban purposes. You can see this measure on the CNT's HTA Index tool at http://htaindex.cnt.org/map/. And I guess I should clarify that while I'm sure that some kids will take LRT downtown or to the mall, I doubt that it will happen on a large enough scale to make a significant impact on boardings.
You're probably right, but it's going to get built along the lines they have drawn. My perspective is to get the best results possible from the outcome of the LPA, which means both Wirth Stations.
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » March 14th, 2013, 2:09 pm

You're probably right, but it's going to get built along the lines they have drawn. My perspective is to get the best results possible from the outcome of the LPA, which means both Wirth Stations.
And a 36th Av/N Memorial Station! How come no one is advocating for this? I heard North Memorial was not in favor of the D2 routing putting a station at their doorstep, despite that their employees, patients, and visitors would have loved it. Now that the station could be nearby but at a comfortable distance, I think they'd be jumping up and down for this station. What about Robbinsdale staff/politicos? Am I wrong on this?

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby MNdible » March 14th, 2013, 2:30 pm

Completely agree. I think given the real, on the ground constraints, the selected route is the only viable one, but I think it's downright stupid to not include the 36th Ave station.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mamundsen » March 21st, 2013, 5:34 pm

Just left the Cub Foods on Broadway and there are people giving out information and taking surveys about this line. There was some flyers that had a NTN (North Transit Network) logo on it.

I think it's good there is some community input going on.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby kellonathan » May 8th, 2013, 5:56 pm

COUNCIL APPROVES LIGHT RAIL FOR BOTTINEAU TRANSITWAY
http://www.metrocouncil.org/News-Events ... nsitw.aspx
ST. PAUL – May 8, 2013—The Metropolitan Council today approved light rail for the 13-mile Bottineau Transitway between Minneapolis and Brooklyn Park, taking an important next step toward building out a regional transitway system.

The Council amended the region’s 2030 Transportation Policy Plan (TPP) to include light rail transit (LRT) as the mode of choice for the corridor and selected the locally preferred alternative (LPA) route along West Broadway Avenue in Brooklyn Park, the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad corridor, and Olson Memorial Highway/Trunk Highway 55 (called the B-C-D1 Alignment).

“Bottineau is key to the region’s future development and continued economic success," said Council Chair Susan Haigh. “As the Metropolitan Council works to build a 21st century transit system, Bottineau LRT will provide residents and employees of the corridor greater access to major destinations in the metro area through links to other major transit corridors.”

The Bottineau LPA was recommended to the Council by the Hennepin County Regional Railroad Authority and the communities in which the corridor is located. With Minneapolis and Brooklyn Park at either end, the corridor passes through the cities of Golden Valley, Robbinsdale and Crystal. Bottineau will be an extension of the Blue (Hiawatha) Line and connect to the Green (Central and Southwest) Line and Northstar Commuter Rail at the Interchange at Target Field Station in Minneapolis.

"The TPP amendment marks a true milestone in realizing the Bottineau Transitway," said Hennepin County Board Chair Mike Opat. "We've worked hard to get to this day, and I thank the residents, City Councils along the route, my colleagues on the Hennepin County Board and the Metropolitan Council for working together to take this important step forward."

Bottineau LRT is projected to provide approximately 27,000 rides a day by 2030. The project is estimated to cost $1 billion in year 2017 dollars. At this time, it is anticipated that funds for capital costs will come from four sources: the Counties Transit Improvement Board’s transit sales tax in the metro area (30 percent), the Hennepin County Regional Railroad Authority (10 percent), the State of Minnesota (10 percent), and the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) (50 percent).
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Chauncey87 » May 8th, 2013, 6:31 pm

Great news! So when does talk of a tunnel for downtown start? I feel with "four" lines running down 5th your going to have a train on pretty much every block during peak time.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » May 8th, 2013, 6:56 pm

I'd suggest a tunnel under 6th if we were to go that route. I can't imagine how we'd tunnel under 5th without removing four lines from service for a couple of years.

It's unfortunate that Bottineau Blvd (northwest of Bass Lake where the rails and road will be adjacent) will make Hiawatha look like a neighborhood street by comparison. Six lanes, double turn lanes, and a 55 MPH speed limit. And we doubled down on this 60s era highway by rebuilding it this way within the last decade.


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