Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
talindsay
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby talindsay » May 8th, 2013, 8:28 pm

Yes, this is great news. Hopefully this line gets funded before the politics of transit get pushed down again by a future split legislature.

Remember this isn't four lines on fifth downtown - it's two lines. The blue and the green will run symmetrically on each of their two segments, and symmetrically with each other most likely, so there will be two interlined transit lines running on fifth. It will be a lot of trains for sure, but perfectly within capacity for street running.

mamundsen
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mamundsen » May 8th, 2013, 8:43 pm

Has anyone mapped out the route on Google Maps? Link please.

kellonathan
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby kellonathan » May 8th, 2013, 9:56 pm

I just mapped out on a Google map.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit? ... lICMhn77tA

You can also get detailed maps for each section (B, C and D1) from below as well.

http://www.bottineautransitway.org/libr ... nments.htm
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mamundsen
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mamundsen » May 8th, 2013, 10:03 pm

Thanks! I like seeing it on Google. :)

So they opted to not route near North Memorial and through most of North Mpls. Interesting.

I am surprised that the northern most stop isn't at Target's campus up there. It's VERY close. Could that change?

seanrichardryan
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby seanrichardryan » May 8th, 2013, 10:15 pm

I didn't realize it was running quite so close to Anoka. They should just make a transit station at the Northstar platform there. It would open up many more development opportunities along the corridor and begin the web of transit.
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mattaudio
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » May 9th, 2013, 6:57 am

Not a single worthwhile urban station except Robbinsdale. Shame.

Snelbian
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Snelbian » May 9th, 2013, 7:06 am

I like the two stops on a golf course. Brilliant.

mattaudio
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » May 9th, 2013, 7:16 am

No stop at 36th St which would actually be within a couple blocks of some relatively dense development.

But we have two stops adjacent to the same golf course, and LITERALLY THREE STOPS adjacent to farm fields at the north end. This is a shameful routing.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 9th, 2013, 8:37 am

Not a single worthwhile urban station except Robbinsdale. Shame.
This was my thought as well. SO much for serving the people of North in a more meaningful way. I'm not saying that transferring by bus to the line will be the end of the world, but this alignment completely misses so many decently dense areas and being aligned against the park and through a giant highway will not attract great development (which would be a waste of what we have already to begin with).

Color me a continued sad based on the SW and Bottineau alignments.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 9th, 2013, 8:39 am

Also, this was noted in the release:

"The amendment also acknowledges that several potential Arterial BRT corridors, including West Broadway Avenue in north Minneapolis, will be studied for other transportations modes, such as streetcar. The Metropolitan Council, the city of Minneapolis, and Hennepin County are in talks to fund a transit study of West Broadway Avenue. The study would evaluate bus and streetcar options along the corridor. If approved, Metro Transit would initiate the study in late 2013."

Why do both? Why build a more expensive line that doesn't serve the high-ridership and then ALSO build aBRT or streetcar along that other corridor?

mullen
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mullen » May 9th, 2013, 8:47 am

yay another suburban commuter line-great work henn cty/met council.

i'm sure those golf course stops will see a ton of use. *cough*

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mplser » May 9th, 2013, 9:48 am

I know people like to be snarky about the "golf course stops" but the truth is i have a few friends that live in the Golden Valley Rd/Penn area that would use these all the time. Not that they couldn't have used it if it went down Penn , though.... (which actually would have been more convenient for them, but this is still usable)

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woofner
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby woofner » May 9th, 2013, 9:54 am

It's unfortunate that Bottineau Blvd (northwest of Bass Lake where the rails and road will be adjacent) will make Hiawatha look like a neighborhood street by comparison. Six lanes, double turn lanes, and a 55 MPH speed limit. And we doubled down on this 60s era highway by rebuilding it this way within the last decade.
Too bad they didn't build the BRT they planned to incorporate into the layout at the time because Mike Opat wanted a toy train. Maybe that would have built up enough ridership that they could better justify a line that actually serves North Minneapolis.

Looking at the google map, I also wish they had found a way to better serve Osseo. Basically the reason they chose Brooklyn Park over Maple Grove is to suck off Target, but the number of jobs at their suburban sprawl campus would have to more than quadruple to match the amount of existing jobs in the Osseo industrial district. Since Hennepin Tech is the only actual reason to run this train north of 694, they could have routed it west on 85th Ave, then up the wide 169 median and put a stop at E Broadway St to get somewhat close to the Osseo business district. They could still build an extension to Target Cornfield if someday they add enough jobs to actually justify it.
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RailBaronYarr
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 9th, 2013, 10:23 am

Looking at the google map, I also wish they had found a way to better serve Osseo. Basically the reason they chose Brooklyn Park over Maple Grove is to suck off Target, but the number of jobs at their suburban sprawl campus would have to more than quadruple to match the amount of existing jobs in the Osseo industrial district. Since Hennepin Tech is the only actual reason to run this train north of 694, they could have routed it west on 85th Ave, then up the wide 169 median and put a stop at E Broadway St to get somewhat close to the Osseo business district. They could still build an extension to Target Cornfield if someday they add enough jobs to actually justify it.
And even with all those jobs in Osseo there is still no reasonable way people would get around once off the train without further circulating buses to get them there (which they most likely wouldn't do). I'm not opposed to connecting people to these existing job sites, it's just such a wasted effort (and money) because our built environment nearly everywhere just does not support transit like LRT stations. What SHOULD happen is massive upzoning and reductions in land-use restrictions in the areas with low-wage jobs (Minneapolis has a lot, but the NW and SW areas have some good pockets as well), to allow people to live near said jobs. Half of $1B+ for the Bottineau LRT would go a long way in helping juice some great development in centralized nodes where jobs are. I'd take the remaining $500M and put it towards all the aBRT corridors within Mpls-StP to improve connectivity and reduce travel times for those job areas.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby min-chi-cbus » May 9th, 2013, 11:35 am

I like the two stops on a golf course. Brilliant.
Hey man, some golfers can't afford cars.......... :roll:

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby min-chi-cbus » May 9th, 2013, 11:38 am

Clearly they are planning for development around the stops, and not actually going to highly-developed/pre-existing stops. I know they do this to show potential ROI, but I agree that they miss the boat completely sometimes by having stops in the middle of an empty field. I wonder though if any of these alignments would have passed without the ROI factor from redevelopment/development potential??

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby MNdible » May 9th, 2013, 11:38 am

Why do both? Why build a more expensive line that doesn't serve the high-ridership and then ALSO build aBRT or streetcar along that other corridor?
Because they can fit aBRT or streetcar within existing right of ways without taking a ton of property and reducing important streets within North Minneapolis to frontage roads. LRT is hard to cram through already developed urban areas unless you happen to have a street with 120' ROWs.

Carry on with the bashing.

(I continue to lament the lack of a 36th Avenue station.)

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » May 9th, 2013, 11:47 am

Or we could get serious, and build a better shorter line. Cut and cover under Broadway with two or three urban stations. Stations at North Memorial, 36th, Robbinsdale, and Bass Lake. No need for this to go outside the beltway and serve farm fields.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby MNdible » May 9th, 2013, 11:52 am

I assume by "serious", you mean a line that would be twice as expensive on a per-mile basis and wouldn't qualify for federal funding?

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 9th, 2013, 11:59 am

Because they can fit aBRT or streetcar within existing right of ways without taking a ton of property and reducing important streets within North Minneapolis to frontage roads. LRT is hard to cram through already developed urban areas unless you happen to have a street with 120' ROWs.
If the goal is to continue to have the same amount of car capacity on a street (road?) after the LRT is built, then yeah. I fail to see how reducing some of those ROWs to 'frontage roads' is a bad thing when we just added a high capacity, 10 minute headway LRT that goes in to downtown (and the airport and MOA) and connects to other transit lines. Isn't that the point, to replace one mode of transit that costs individual users (car owners) and society (pollution, parking, etc) a lot of money with one that doesn't?
Or we could get serious, and build a better shorter line. Cut and cover under Broadway with two or three urban stations. Stations at North Memorial, 36th, Robbinsdale, and Bass Lake. No need for this to go outside the beltway and serve farm fields.
This was my thought. Serving North Mpls and Robbinsdale has a lot of merit due to the existing land-use (which is still very suburban relative to spoke lines in bigger cities). But anything beyond that adds a lot of cost simply to serve suburban commuters and tries to induce watered-down TOD around the stations. Reducing line length while spending a little more per mile would serve those areas inside the belt better, and if outer suburbs implement better land-use then the line can eventually be expanded.


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