Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

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twincitizen
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » February 3rd, 2016, 9:37 am

I guess I'm confused why they wouldn't even threaten to deny municipal consent. It's not like Hennepin County or Met Council are just going to throw up their hands and cancel the whole project. What exactly does the City of Minneapolis have to lose by denying municipal consent here?

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alleycat » February 3rd, 2016, 9:38 am

Agreed, but it's just not in his character. He's much more likely to work with city staff or an outside agency, build consensus with constituents and then publicly support something. That's what he's done with housing inspections, the vacant home recycling program and the rebuild of 26th Ave N that includes an off street trail. The later languished under Samuels.
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » February 3rd, 2016, 9:40 am

The City Council can't hold Bottineau as a hostage here because it isn't a credible threat; the party being threatened has to care if the hostage is shot, and the hostage-taker has to be willing to shoot. Does MnDOT really care about this light rail line more than the road? I doubt it. And as this has demonstrated, the City clearly cares more about making sure the line goes forward than shrinking Olson. I don't see much leverage there.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alleycat » February 3rd, 2016, 9:49 am

twincitizen wrote:What exactly does the City of Minneapolis have to lose by denying municipal consent here?
This is the more pertinent question instead of blaming Yang. I'll repeat what I said on Twitter last night.

The county, Met Council and MNDOT are compounding a bad alignment and not fixing the one redeeming aspect of said alignment: stitching Harrison back into the Northside. But we all have to admit this alignment is about making commuting via Light Rail or car painless for suburbanites. That's not what is in the city's best interest.

All the council has to do is grow a spine and withhold consent unless their demands along Olson are met. The plan should leave the trees, take center lanes for lrt and reduce speed to 30 mph.
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby woofner » February 3rd, 2016, 1:06 pm

Well phrased, alleycat. The council will not grow a spine, however, unless they have cover from advocates. This is the most disappointing aspect of the whole thing to me: the advocacy community doesn't seem to be engaged on this, even though it is probably the worst urban planning decision of the last three decades. Where is the MBC protesting against this huge barrier to cycling on the Northside? Where is ISAIAH? Transit for Livable Communities, I hate to say, are showing how out of touch they are advocating in favor of consent, even though a 6 lane Olson hurts the Northside more than Bottineau will help it. Disappointing and implies that urban Minnesota will continue to be a killing ground for the pleasure of suburbanites for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » February 3rd, 2016, 3:34 pm

woofner wrote:A 6 lane Olson hurts the Northside more than Bottineau will help it
That is an excellent talking point. Let's go with that.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » February 3rd, 2016, 4:13 pm

EOst wrote:The City Council can't hold Bottineau as a hostage here because it isn't a credible threat; the party being threatened has to care if the hostage is shot, and the hostage-taker has to be willing to shoot. Does MnDOT really care about this light rail line more than the road? I doubt it. And as this has demonstrated, the City clearly cares more about making sure the line goes forward than shrinking Olson. I don't see much leverage there.
The Met Council certainly cares. If the city were to deny municipal consent it would force Met Council to address the issue with Mn/DOT. At the very least the city would get a nicer-looking car sewer.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » February 3rd, 2016, 4:17 pm

woofner wrote:Well phrased, alleycat. The council will not grow a spine, however, unless they have cover from advocates. This is the most disappointing aspect of the whole thing to me: the advocacy community doesn't seem to be engaged on this, even though it is probably the worst urban planning decision of the last three decades. Where is the MBC protesting against this huge barrier to cycling on the Northside? Where is ISAIAH? Transit for Livable Communities, I hate to say, are showing how out of touch they are advocating in favor of consent, even though a 6 lane Olson hurts the Northside more than Bottineau will help it. Disappointing and implies that urban Minnesota will continue to be a killing ground for the pleasure of suburbanites for the foreseeable future.
I agree that more advocacy organizations need to be involved. I do know that Harrison disbanded its transit equity group while the neighborhood organization was re-staffed and, er, reorganized. Now they have a new transit organizer and while they've been doing some work on Bottineau again, he came on fairly late in the game to really have the relationships to push things. I haven't been very connected with this new group (lack of car until recently and a 2.5-year-old makes it difficult) so I can't really say more than that.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby froggie » February 3rd, 2016, 4:21 pm

Anondson wrote:And 16,000 west of Penn. This is silly.
That was the 2012 figure. The 2014 volume was much higher...just over 24,000, and more in line with adjacent segments.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Anondson » February 3rd, 2016, 4:55 pm

In two years it jumps 8,000? Something significant regionally changed to either make 2012 the odd blip make 2014 the odd blip.

694 work? 394 work?

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » February 3rd, 2016, 6:33 pm

David Greene wrote:The Met Council certainly cares. If the city were to deny municipal consent it would force Met Council to address the issue with Mn/DOT. At the very least the city would get a nicer-looking car sewer.
Maybe. I know you're more connected in things than I am, but Yang et al. can do the same game theory calculations that we can. If they knew Minneapolis had leverage over the Met Council and the Met Council had sufficient leverage over MnDOT to change things, why roll over?

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby intercomnut » February 3rd, 2016, 7:33 pm

From what I've heard from a few sources, Goodman and Johnson were against the lane reduction, which weakened the City's position.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby minneboom » February 3rd, 2016, 7:45 pm

intercomnut wrote:From what I've heard from a few sources, Goodman and Johnson were against the lane reduction, which weakened the City's position.
Johnson should be the one FOR lane reductions, especially given all the difficulties with the Hiawatha portion of Highway 55. The blue line proved that you need to be even more mindful of the highway next to the line. This entire corridor is still extremely inhospitable for pedestrians and has not spurred as much development as expected.
David Greene wrote:I agree that more advocacy organizations need to be involved.
If MNDOT is the problem, why are our community advocates not doing more to contact the governor and our state representatives? Should people start a petition to show that there is support for a better highway design?

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby VacantLuxuries » February 3rd, 2016, 9:01 pm

Johnson should be the one FOR lane reductions, especially given all the difficulties with the Hiawatha portion of Highway 55.
Yes, but that would involve Johnson actually caring about the part of her district south of Victory.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alleycat » February 3rd, 2016, 9:18 pm

Wrong Johnson, VacantLuxuries. Andrew not Barb is on TPW. Anyways, most of Barb's ward stops at Lowry and only a sliver goes to 24th Avenue N.
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » February 3rd, 2016, 9:30 pm

minneboom wrote:
David Greene wrote:I agree that more advocacy organizations need to be involved.
If MNDOT is the problem, why are our community advocates not doing more to contact the governor and our state representatives? Should people start a petition to show that there is support for a better highway design?
As they say, you are the change you are looking for. But petitions are worthless. What's needed is raw power pushing against the status quo.

Organizations have limited resources. At any point in time they can only work on so many issues. Some of the larger racial justice organizations are working on things like ending mass incarceration, improving schools and so on. A fight over lane reductions on a relatively small stretch of road is not really on their radar. Unless the communities themselves rise up and demand change, it's going to continue to fly under that radar.

As an example, ISAIAH got involved in SWLRT primarily because NOC got very interested in it and the possibilities to leverage that fight for improved transit beyond SWLRT itself. ISAIAH and other groups responded to authentic action and demands from POC directly affected. Frankly, those organizations are not going to respond to a group of white liberals like myself, as much as I might like to think they will given the roles I've played within that organization. To get those organizations engaged, it has to come from the community.

The best way to apply pressure in a situation like this is to engage the neighborhoods and convince them it's a fight worth fighting and that they can win. If you create the power, power organizations will be drawn to it.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby froggie » February 4th, 2016, 8:42 am

In two years it jumps 8,000? Something significant regionally changed to either make 2012 the odd blip make 2014 the odd blip.
One could just as easily question the 4,700 drop in the other direction between 2010 and 2012. Volumes were over 20K on that segment in 2010, much closer in line with the adjacent segments (west of Wirth Pkwy and east of Penn). So I'm thinking 2012 was the odd blip. I don't recall if there was construction on Olson near the park that year or not.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mulad » February 4th, 2016, 8:55 am

The main point still remains, though -- is there a need for 6 lanes with that volume of traffic? Snelling Avenue and Lexington Parkway in St. Paul both carry higher volumes on segments with 4 lanes.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby froggie » February 4th, 2016, 9:25 am

To which I've replied in the past, no, except perhaps for the approaches to I-94. I can see a 3rd and perhaps even 4th approach lane beginning at Van White for that junction. But west of Van White, excluding turn lanes, I don't see a need for 6 unless we wanted to provided a dedicated bus lane for the C-Line.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mulad » February 4th, 2016, 9:47 am

Volumes are consistently above 30,000 on Snelling from University north to Pierce Butler and beyond. Lexington has volumes in the range of 23,700 to 29,000 up to Como Ave. Snelling and Lexington widen beyond 4 lanes at I-94, but Snelling gets up to 43,500 and Lexington gets up to 34,500.

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