Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
dmdhashw
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Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby dmdhashw » May 31st, 2012, 4:18 pm

New route proposed for Bottineau LRT

It looks like they're planning to skip N. Minneapolis and go deeper in Brooklyn Park instead of west towards Maple Grove. I think it would be a mistake to skip N. Minneapolis, but I'm sure the suburbanites wouldn't want to go through that area.

bandar_seri_begawan
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby bandar_seri_begawan » May 31st, 2012, 4:39 pm

The thought of a complete bypass of North Minneapolis is very disappointing.

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Andrew_F
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby Andrew_F » May 31st, 2012, 10:27 pm

Great to see that we're continuing the tradition established by SWLRT of pursuing mediocrity in our routing to serve suburbanites and bypass the more dense areas.

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woofner
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby woofner » June 1st, 2012, 10:16 am

The choice of Brooklyn Park for a northern route really shows the influence of major corporations on the decision making process for this type of infrastructure. In the Alternatives Analysis, every Maple Grove route scored better than every Brooklyn Park route on just about every metric. Latest data shows the Maple Grove route has about 3,000 more jobs in the vicinity than the Brooklyn Park route, and even if Target does expand its workforce there (at the expense of Downtown Minneapolis), there is otherwise much more vacant land around the Maple Grove route than the Brooklyn Park route.

Personally I'd rather Bottineau not be extended beyond the beltway, but if it is, it should be placed in such a way that it serves more jobs and attracts more TOD (hopefully that otherwise would be unclustered development).
"Who rescued whom!"

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Nathan
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby Nathan » June 1st, 2012, 4:03 pm

It's definitely a mistake not to go through North, where the people could really use it to access jobs. Maple Grove also seems like the way to go, that or both.

mplser
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby mplser » June 1st, 2012, 5:10 pm

wow. what a complete disregard for doing anything that makes sense... rerouting public transportation away from the area of the city that uses it the most? What are these guys smoking? Bath salts?

Tcmetro
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby Tcmetro » June 2nd, 2012, 12:36 am

I thought the documents showed that the Maple Grove branch would be both cheaper and attract more riders, but the justification for Brooklyn Park was that there "was more developable land" and that gravel mining in Maple Grove could go on for a long time.

I like Maple Grove for the access to the regional shopping and entry-level jobs, but the Brooklyn Park branch would offer service to North Hennepin Community College and some apartment buildings. The area around 610 and Broadway could also become a major office center in the future, but the same could be said of Maple Grove.

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Nick
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby Nick » June 2nd, 2012, 8:46 am

I'm not one to trip over myself defending suburbanites, but in this case I'm pretty sure there's a lot of opposition to the Northside routing from the Northside itself. The land acquisition they'd have to do on Penn is...complicated.

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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby Tcmetro » June 4th, 2012, 7:31 am

This presentation shows that the Maple Grove route will attract 600 more riders per day, have nearly 900 more daily hours of benefit, cost $40 million less, and recieve a better CEI rating than the Brooklyn Park route.

The Brooklyn Park route does have two distinct advantages:
- The location of a stop at Brooklyn Bl, where there is a busy shopping center and established bus hub
- The location of a stop at North Hennepin Community College

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby min-chi-cbus » June 4th, 2012, 2:33 pm

I personally can't see a scenario in which this line actively avoids the black population by going through Golden Valley instead of North Minneapolis, and Maple Grove instead of Brooklyn Park. In fact, I see a public outcry if that were to happen -- whether the numbers make less sense or not!

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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby NickP » June 4th, 2012, 5:07 pm

I'm with ELF on this one. I have read that many people along the Penn Ave. alignment are worried about the land acquisitions. What if we switched the station placement on the preferred right-of-way. I think taking out the stop at Golden Valley Road and instead putting a station at Plymouth would give much better access to Theodore Wirth Park. This would also allow for a station closer to North Memorial Hospital. Both locations would be busy locations IMO. One of the worries, however, would be if the Plymouth Ave Stations would overlap too much with the Penn Ave Station.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby FISHMANPET » June 7th, 2012, 3:02 pm

If you want to complain about routing not serving the right neighborhoods, look to the feds and a funding formula that emphasizes improving the commutes of suburban residents into the core, rather than providing better access to more transit dependent markets and encouraging redevelopment.
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tabletop
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby tabletop » June 7th, 2012, 3:34 pm

I would like to propose a solution that could be added to the construction of either the Bottineau, the Southwest light rail line or the Interchange: build a station at Broadway and Lyndale that would connect to the Interchange. I don't think it would be too expensive, could be single tracked most the way. But with the Bottineau alignment down hwy 55 and the Southwest line abutting bryn-mar, all that's needed is a station on Broadway and you suddenly turn N. Minneapolis into a transit haven (while we're at it, throw a couple of street car lines down Freemont and Emerson).

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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby MNdible » June 8th, 2012, 8:45 pm

Light Rail needs dedicated right of way. This isn't a street car. Running it along existing developed streets is a huge mess, and the fact that it's following the existing rail grade and not going through North Minneapolis isn't for lack of trying to find a viable acceptable alternative. Don't assume it's a conspiracy.

As for Maple Grove -- have you been there? There is nothing about its development pattern that makes it attractive for being served by rail. Yes, there are a lot of jobs there, but they're separated by vast tracts of parking lots. Brooklyn Park at least holds out the promise of still becoming a dense node of jobs and housing.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby min-chi-cbus » June 9th, 2012, 6:22 pm

Light Rail needs dedicated right of way. This isn't a street car. Running it along existing developed streets is a huge mess, and the fact that it's following the existing rail grade and not going through North Minneapolis isn't for lack of trying to find a viable acceptable alternative. Don't assume it's a conspiracy.

As for Maple Grove -- have you been there? There is nothing about its development pattern that makes it attractive for being served by rail. Yes, there are a lot of jobs there, but they're separated by vast tracts of parking lots. Brooklyn Park at least holds out the promise of still becoming a dense node of jobs and housing.
Agree. I think BP COULD become the first truly integrated, multi-cultural super suburb in the Twin Cities, and built sustainably with moderate densities and businesses that are part of the community/neighborhood. Ironically, the suburb that comes to mind when I think about what Brooklyn Park could be is Schaumburg, IL (ironic because Schaumburg is often considered a suburban nightmare, but it's very diverse and multi-cultural and there's a ton of businesses there). Like, I see no reason why Brooklyn Park couldn't house 125K-150K people at full build-out (which, I'm guessing is about 5K ppsm density).

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Nick
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby Nick » June 9th, 2012, 6:41 pm

I drove down Penn today (with Paula Pentel, a candidate for County Commissioner that you should vote for if you live in District 2) from Olson to West Broadway and counted 90 houses on the east side of the street, about the same amount on the other side. Not sure where the "130 homes" number comes from, though that could be counting duplexes as two houses.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby FISHMANPET » June 10th, 2012, 12:35 am

Oh man, I would vote for her if I could. She's 50% responsible for me being the urban nerd that I am now.
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Wedgeguy
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby Wedgeguy » June 11th, 2012, 7:39 am

I'm one that think there should be a street car line on broadway instead of Light rail. Just not enough room for Light rail up Broadway.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby min-chi-cbus » June 11th, 2012, 9:44 am

I'm one that think there should be a street car line on broadway instead of Light rail. Just not enough room for Light rail up Broadway.
Fine with me, just get these things funded NOW before the tables turn and the govt. doesn't support mass transit funding like Obama does (if he loses, that is)!

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Re: Bottineau LRT

Postby Wedgeguy » June 12th, 2012, 11:30 am

People are moving back into the urban area. Any politican that does not support transist will be voted out very fast. The writing is on the wall for getting the most bang for the buck with the number of people they can transport. One has to look at the future and not just what is happening today. We are right now in a dark ages period of small short sites stupid thinkers, instead of those leaders that gave us many great amenitys.


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