MSP to Rochester High Speed Rail

[tmart]

I honestly think connecting Northstar to St. Cloud as a commuter line would be a better example to show, but looks like NLE is closer to actually happening.

My gut says that, if either happens, they probably both will, and probably within a few years of each other. Maybe there's a virtuous cycle where all of a sudden Rochester is the biggest region in the state without a transit option; where the #1, #2, and #4 MSAs in the state are connected; and various regions feel they need to push for service so as to be, quite literally, on the map.

My gut also says neither project will happen as long as the GOP controls any single branch of government, and even then I don't see Walz as a particularly strong ally on this point. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong!

[mattaudio]

One thing that needs to happen is to build more of a base in the MSP region for these services rather than relying on individual regions in Greater MN to lobby for their lines.

[talindsay]

One thing that needs to happen is to build more of a base in the MSP region for these services rather than relying on individual regions in Greater MN to lobby for their lines.

This. The Greater MN regions all are absolutely auto-dependent so a train into the Cities, while nice for commuters or casual trips, is really just a luxury. The core is pretty damn auto-dependent as well, but people here actually valuing the idea of getting out of the core without cars would significantly strengthen any case for these lines. As long as the lines are envisioned as expensive commuter transit into the Cities, it's hard to make the case for the investment. True intercity rail benefits people going both ways, at various points along the corridor. Rochester specifically, being a medical destination in its own right, is probably the strongest case for this, but it's still not self evident - it needs to be developed.

[Oreos&Milk]

One thing that needs to happen is to build more of a base in the MSP region for these services rather than relying on individual regions in Greater MN to lobby for their lines.

This. The Greater MN regions all are absolutely auto-dependent so a train into the Cities, while nice for commuters or casual trips, is really just a luxury. The core is pretty damn auto-dependent as well, but people here actually valuing the idea of getting out of the core without cars would significantly strengthen any case for these lines. As long as the lines are envisioned as expensive commuter transit into the Cities, it's hard to make the case for the investment. True intercity rail benefits people going both ways, at various points along the corridor. Rochester specifically, being a medical destination in its own right, is probably the strongest case for this, but it's still not self evident - it needs to be developed.

So true, however without the rail system in place the development won't happen. The investment in the rail system is massive enough, however imagine if a developer were to scoop up the land around proposed stations, build the rail line and then develop the land into profitable development that also helped make the transit system even more profitable. That kinda investment would be massive and likely risky. If it can be profitable then there is a way, yet if it's not as profitable and as less risky as another project then it's a harder sell. I'm just saying, if there is profit to be made then there is a way.

[DanPatchToget]

One thing that needs to happen is to build more of a base in the MSP region for these services rather than relying on individual regions in Greater MN to lobby for their lines.

This. The Greater MN regions all are absolutely auto-dependent so a train into the Cities, while nice for commuters or casual trips, is really just a luxury. The core is pretty damn auto-dependent as well, but people here actually valuing the idea of getting out of the core without cars would significantly strengthen any case for these lines. As long as the lines are envisioned as expensive commuter transit into the Cities, it's hard to make the case for the investment. True intercity rail benefits people going both ways, at various points along the corridor. Rochester specifically, being a medical destination in its own right, is probably the strongest case for this, but it's still not self evident - it needs to be developed.

I don't know if this was the point you were trying to make, but it seems like an easy solution is to include stops along the route (Pine Island, Cannon Falls, Zumbrota, etc.) and have express trains that don't make those stops and trains that do stop in those towns, so then those towns aren't left behind with a bullet train zipping through them.

[bubzki2]

^Great point. Critically, this would also abrogate one of the key detractor talking points (that it doesn't benefit those most affected by the train).

[tmart]

True intercity rail benefits people going both ways, at various points along the corridor. Rochester specifically, being a medical destination in its own right, is probably the strongest case for this, but it's still not self evident - it needs to be developed.

Couldn't you achieve some of this by continuing on to La Crosse, Madison, Milwaukee, and Chicago? I know it was being developed in isolation, but I always saw Rochester HSR in the context of the MSP-Chicago corridor and the scrapped ARRA HSR plans.

I don't know if this was the point you were trying to make, but it seems like an easy solution is to include stops along the route (Pine Island, Cannon Falls, Zumbrota, etc.) and have express trains that don't make those stops and trains that do stop in those towns, so then those towns aren't left behind with a bullet train zipping through them.

Even just adding one stop (probably Cannon Falls) might go a long way. The optics of shuttling people nonstop with literally no options whatsoever other than going to the end of the line are pretty bad. Having a stop to act as a magnet for people going into either city makes sense from a fairness perspective, even if it doesn't necessarily from a ridership one.