Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

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QuietBlue
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby QuietBlue » March 22nd, 2018, 10:32 am

Since there are already express buses that run along the Red Line route (albeit during more limited hours), that's probably part of the reasoning too. Most people already take those if the timing works out.

Bakken2016
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Bakken2016 » March 22nd, 2018, 11:53 am

QuietBlue wrote:
March 22nd, 2018, 10:32 am
Since there are already express buses that run along the Red Line route (albeit during more limited hours), that's probably part of the reasoning too. Most people already take those if the timing works out.
Just get rid of the express buses, and beef up the service on the Red Line, and extend it to downtown.

mattaudio
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby mattaudio » March 22nd, 2018, 12:16 pm

I think we should look strongly at how we can curtail express service in this corridor and supplant with Red Line extension to downtown. There are already express buses that stop at multiple stations along the corridor, especially during shoulder hours of rush hour such as the 477V or 477R. If the Red Line ran through Downtown, it could replace many of these express buses. I think there would still need to be express buses during peak hours.

tmart
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby tmart » March 22nd, 2018, 12:46 pm

I wonder if maybe it's a dumb turf war between MVTA and Metro Transit. If MT's really that concerned about making sure the Red Line riders use the Blue Line to get downtown, it's possible that MVTA wants express buses from the South Metro to be exclusively MVTA service and not Metro.

QuietBlue
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby QuietBlue » March 22nd, 2018, 2:13 pm

One issue with replacing the express buses with the Red Line would be the extra time added to trips by servicing the MOA; getting in and out of there would slow things down a fair amount.

Also, some of the express routes that run along Cedar/77 don't just run through that corridor -- they stop elsewhere too, such as the Blackhawk P&R in Eagan, the Minnesota Zoo, etc. It would require a substantial rework of the connecting routes and probably expansion of the existing Red Line station parking as well if the express buses replaced by the Red Line no longer serviced those locations (when I took it, a lot of riders on the 472 used the Blackhawk P&R, for example).

Tcmetro
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » March 22nd, 2018, 2:16 pm

An extension north to Minneapolis would reduce the trip time by approximately 15-20 minutes, as well as eliminate the transfer penalty.

Maybe it would be worthwhile to run every other trip north as a test to see how well it would perform. Would be nice during 35w construction as well

DanPatchToget
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby DanPatchToget » March 22nd, 2018, 9:40 pm

QuietBlue wrote:
March 22nd, 2018, 10:32 am
Since there are already express buses that run along the Red Line route (albeit during more limited hours), that's probably part of the reasoning too. Most people already take those if the timing works out.
By that logic why are we building the light rail extensions when there are already express buses?

I'm not saying eliminate all express service on this corridor and replace it with the Red Line. If the Red Line was extended north I don't see major impacts happening to the express service. At most a few trips on the 477 get cut and the 475 is reduced to a few trips during peak time in peak direction.

QuietBlue
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby QuietBlue » March 23rd, 2018, 7:39 am

There's no way a Red Line bus that has to make all of its existing stops plus a stop at MOA on its route is going to be as fast as the existing express buses. That's what it would be up against. Sure, a Red Line bus that goes downtown is going to be faster than Red Line + Blue Line, and it would be a good substitute for that. But expecting riders who want an express bus to be content with a slower Red Line bus to downtown is unrealistic.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby DanPatchToget » March 23rd, 2018, 9:21 am

QuietBlue wrote:
March 23rd, 2018, 7:39 am
There's no way a Red Line bus that has to make all of its existing stops plus a stop at MOA on its route is going to be as fast as the existing express buses. That's what it would be up against. Sure, a Red Line bus that goes downtown is going to be faster than Red Line + Blue Line, and it would be a good substitute for that. But expecting riders who want an express bus to be content with a slower Red Line bus to downtown is unrealistic.
I don't know if you're talking to me, but yes I know that. Like I said previously, there would be little, if any, cuts to express service with a Red Line extension to downtown.

Some people who use express buses in the east metro were ticked because they thought the Gold Line would replace those buses and they would have to deal with slower station-to-station service. That's not the intent of these BRT and LRT routes. Its to provide all day service in both directions giving people who use the express buses another option of travel (if they have to leave work early then chances are likely the express bus isn't running), allowing people who travel off-peak a convenient option, and allowing people who travel suburb-to-suburb a convenient option while being more economical than an express bus running all day in both directions.

HiawathaGuy
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby HiawathaGuy » March 23rd, 2018, 10:19 am

I'm still amazed that this is even being debated... if the infrastructure is being built out to support the Red Line BRT to through-route MOA on to downtown, it should be. It gives people more options, which is always good. If this adds riders from East Bloomington to the ride pool, who now perhaps don't want to spend 1/2 hour on the Blue Line, but could support taking the Red Line from MOA to downtown, via 35W (the same way they'd drive), I'm all for it. I don't think any current express routes from AV/Lakeville/Eagan/Burnsville need to be eliminated. It shouldn't be about this vs that, but really a this & that option.

QuietBlue
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby QuietBlue » March 23rd, 2018, 10:27 am

Just to clarify, I'm all for expanding the Red Line to downtown Minneapolis, because that will make a lot more useful, particularly for riders traveling outside of rush hours. My intent was to show why others may not consider it necessary, but I think that doing so is a good idea as long as it's not considered a substitute for the express routes.

HiawathaGuy
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby HiawathaGuy » March 23rd, 2018, 11:42 am

QuietBlue wrote:
March 23rd, 2018, 10:27 am
Just to clarify, I'm all for expanding the Red Line to downtown Minneapolis, because that will make a lot more useful, particularly for riders traveling outside of rush hours. My intent was to show why others may not consider it necessary, but I think that doing so is a good idea as long as it's not considered a substitute for the express routes.
I never doubted that - I meant I can't believe Metro Transit/Met Council is still debating this...

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sdho
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby sdho » March 23rd, 2018, 2:44 pm

Given what a dud the Red Line has been so far, I guess I don't see an extension as making a dramatic improvement -- and I wouldn't support it if it meant "splitting" Orange Line frequency. But if it was just layered on top, it would be a nice addition. I agree time from MOA to downtown would be better on 35W most of the day. Having an all-day express bus from 66th and Cedar would also be really nice for the development area there. And obviously 46th St and Lake St Station would get even better frequency than they're already slated to.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby DanPatchToget » April 14th, 2018, 9:28 pm

Red Line is shut down from 8 PM to 8 AM.

And the anti-LRT crowd will be silent.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby DanPatchToget » August 3rd, 2018, 11:43 am

Oreos&Milk wrote:
August 3rd, 2018, 10:17 am
Getting a bit off topic as this is pertains more to the Red line than the Orange. There is zero reason why Lakeville couldn't get serious about connectivity and turn 205th into a bike trail instead of a roadway. From at least Holyoke Ave to Cedar. However that might be unnecessary anyways as 210th is already lined with a nice bike trail. Downtown Lakeville does not have the density needed to route the bus down Holyoke instead the area is barely walkable but could easily be bikeable. Plus a bus station on Cedar gives Lakeville the opportunity to created new density with new development. Sadly they continue to build low density down that corridor so they are learning nothing and until they get serious and start demanding increased density development I'd say "No bus for you!"

Lakeville is building a good basic system of biking trails and a station down Cedar can still be just as good as in the downtown lakeville area, if not better. If (I doubt it in my lifetime) transit usage increases there is no reason why Northfield Lines could be merged/complementary to the red line. Northfield riders could have access to an air lake station for those industrial jobs or continue onward to the mall / airport or into downtown Minneapolis or St. Paul.

Transit lines need to be straight and direct to ensure speed in maintained. As this corridor only has value if it extends further than just down to lakeville. People who choose to live in Farmington do so knowing they are outside of the transit friendly bubble. Even those who choose to live in Lakeville do so knowing they are on the edge where it's barely (not really worth the investment over other corridors) realistic for them to be included. It's so silly to be talking about connecting people who actively want to live out in the middle of nowhere and are perfectly content with driving a car everywhere. You can't change their mindset, but you can help connect some communities when they happen to fall near a "transit highway" Nothing stopping Farmington to come up with a shuttle idea. Just saying.

Giving people who live in places like Northfield where rent is much cheaper than the cities an option to have dependable transit to places like lakeville or apple valley for good paying jobs would be a win in my book! Giving dependable transit to people in lakeville in oversized homes near the downtown area, I don't understand how anybody would argue that as a better use of funds. That's just my opinion though.
I believe the Lake Marion Greenway will connect the downtowns of Lakeville and Farmington. I know the Milwaukee Road had a line between the two towns until the late 70s or early 80s, not sure if any right-of-way is still left that can be used as a rail-trail, but that's possibly another option for a trail.

As I've said already, we need to stop looking at a southern extension of the Red Line until if/when Lakeville realizes they need diverse housing and transit friendly uses next to potential transit routes. Going north on 77, 62, and I-35W needs to be higher priority, especially when the Orange Line is in operation.

What makes you think everyone who lives in Lakeville and Farmington chooses to so they can be out of the way from transit? I still live in my parents' house in West Bloomington because I don't have the money for my own place yet. There is very little transit, but I wish there was. Just because residents of a community may all seem transit hostile doesn't mean they all are. Seems by your logic everyone who wants transit should move at least into the inner ring suburbs and everyone else live in the second ring suburbs and exurbs, which obviously isn't going to happen.

As for going to Northfield, Lakeville needs to take the hard to swallow pill that is regional rail can work in the Twin Cities and the Dan Patch Line is the place to do it. No amount of buses will win more people over than rail especially in places where transit isn't the norm. Plus the Dan Patch Line is a straight shot from Northfield to Lakeville.

Red Line extends north before extending south, Orange Line will probably extend as far south as I-35 & Kenwood Trail, and Dan Patch serves Northfield and Downtown Lakeville. It really can be that simple if politics weren't involved.


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