Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
David Greene
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby David Greene » April 28th, 2016, 4:13 pm

mulad wrote:It's fairly common to find random park-and-rides strewn around the region. I think a lot of them were built in order to receive Congestion Mitigation and Air Quality (CMAQ) grants to top off budgets of roadway projects.
This is why people hate government.

MNdible
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby MNdible » April 28th, 2016, 5:07 pm

Is it true?

It's not uncommon for older park and rides to be abandoned when newer, larger ones are built nearby, or when routes shift.

Silophant
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Silophant » April 28th, 2016, 9:54 pm

Just because a park-and-ride doesn't have bus service doesn't mean it's not used. I had the (mis)fortune of having to be in New Prague at 9am last Friday, and the little gravel lot park and ride at Hwy 19 and I-35 (~15 miles south of Lakeville) had a couple dozen vehicles in it. I wouldn't want to see structured parking, or even a paved lot, at a place like that, but I think the relatively small expense of a gravel lot like that is fine to take twentysome trips off the highway each day.

SamHartmen

Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby SamHartmen » April 30th, 2016, 8:00 pm

DanPatchToget wrote:I drove down Cedar south of Apple Valley to see what it looks like right now since they want to eventually extend the Red Line to Lakeville. Most of the area is just farm fields, and the only development I've seen are some single family homes. Just south of Lakeville Blvd. (Dakota County Road 50) there is an old park & ride with a bus shelter. Anyone know the story behind it? There are signs directing to the park & ride but it doesn't appear to be in use (note that I'm not talking about Lakeville/Cedar Park & Ride, which is north of this location).

Not sure about the story of how it was created.. however that is going to be the end of the line for the Red Line. Saw some plans about how they want to build a little bus driver break room and layover place. Also at Co Rd 70 and I-35 there is also another of those "park and pool" lots which I seen a plan to have and end of the line Orange line station there as well. Given the area is not well developed I haven't seen much about that proposed extension. Even though they are already planning the Orange line extension to the Lakeville parking ramp near co rd. 50 and I35.

I do agree I which there was more information about the Park and Pool lots online, along with more promotion, but I guess park and ride is a better concept to push given that the only way they make money, instead of clogging up the carpool lanes with cars full of people.

mattaudio
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby mattaudio » May 1st, 2016, 11:53 am

It would make far more sense to extend the Red Line an extra 5 minutes to downtown Farmington, an actual place.

SamHartmen

Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby SamHartmen » May 1st, 2016, 5:18 pm

mattaudio wrote:It would make far more sense to extend the Red Line an extra 5 minutes to downtown Farmington, an actual place.
had you read the red line expansion plan you would understand why they did not do that.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby DanPatchToget » May 1st, 2016, 6:21 pm

SamHartmen wrote:
mattaudio wrote:It would make far more sense to extend the Red Line an extra 5 minutes to downtown Farmington, an actual place.
had you read the red line expansion plan you would understand why they did not do that.
So why didn't they? And why not have the Lakeville extension go to downtown Lakeville?

mattaudio
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby mattaudio » May 1st, 2016, 6:28 pm

SamHartmen wrote:
had you read the red line expansion plan you would understand why they did not do that.
Yeah because they'd rather build parking lots in corn fields.

SamHartmen

Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby SamHartmen » May 1st, 2016, 8:40 pm

DanPatchToget wrote:
SamHartmen wrote:
mattaudio wrote:It would make far more sense to extend the Red Line an extra 5 minutes to downtown Farmington, an actual place.
had you read the red line expansion plan you would understand why they did not do that.
So why didn't they? And why not have the Lakeville extension go to downtown Lakeville?

Transit lines are developed in area that have density AND more importantly have opportunities for additional development. The Red line gives that opportunity to eventually become a corridor where they build 3-5 floor apartment buildings surrounding theses future stations. There is even plans to have the red line go all the way to the downtown(s). The future right now might see a bit iffy, but there is an opportunity to build an entirely new urban community over the next 20-50 years.

It's a long term development plan. It will depend on how much density Lakeville will demand for development around those proposed transit stations. If they allow low density development in those area they know those stations will never get built, they have a good deal of encouragement right there. Maybe someday we might even see a Red Line LRT in say 2060 or 2080. I feel really optimistic for the very long term, as for the short term future it's becomes a touch less underwhelming by the year.

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Tiller
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Tiller » May 1st, 2016, 10:27 pm

The Red Line's recent ridership numbers aren't too bad relative to the rhetoric. While it was underwhelming at first, with time (and as they actually work on finishing it) it's gotten better. Considering it's Dakota County's money anyways, it doesn't really take away from Hennepin/Ramsey. Worst-case, you could say it's a wash, with the marginal utility over time it'll provide our transit system being countered by any negative externalities it produces. I'd bet since development in the area was inevitable anyways, it'll work out to be a net-positive for us.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby DanPatchToget » May 2nd, 2016, 7:41 am

SamHartmen wrote:
DanPatchToget wrote:
SamHartmen wrote:
had you read the red line expansion plan you would understand why they did not do that.
So why didn't they? And why not have the Lakeville extension go to downtown Lakeville?

Transit lines are developed in area that have density AND more importantly have opportunities for additional development. The Red line gives that opportunity to eventually become a corridor where they build 3-5 floor apartment buildings surrounding theses future stations. There is even plans to have the red line go all the way to the downtown(s). The future right now might see a bit iffy, but there is an opportunity to build an entirely new urban community over the next 20-50 years.

It's a long term development plan. It will depend on how much density Lakeville will demand for development around those proposed transit stations. If they allow low density development in those area they know those stations will never get built, they have a good deal of encouragement right there. Maybe someday we might even see a Red Line LRT in say 2060 or 2080. I feel really optimistic for the very long term, as for the short term future it's becomes a touch less underwhelming by the year.
Too bad it seems like Lakeville is more interested in the status quo of large single family homes, but that can always change. I just don't see it in the near term.

mattaudio
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby mattaudio » May 2nd, 2016, 8:50 am

First of all, even in an ideal world it does not make sense to build out the Red Line as a "corridor" TOD, since transit is highly nodal. I think you allude to that when you say "surrounding these future stations," but many pols get "corridor vision" which is a huge distraction when planning transit and land use.

Second of all, there are plenty of development opportunities (maybe MORE, even) in Downtowns Lakeville and Farmington. Those development opportunities just don't present themselves as 500 acres of farm field for Pulte, DR Horton, or Lennar to denigrate. But there are plenty of vacant buildings, old industrial reuse opportunities, unused surface parking lots, etc in both downtowns. And both downtowns are highly walkable with high amenities right in their core (they were both built as railroad towns, after all).

I swear the way we think about TOD in 2016 really destroys the true potential for development-oriented transit. And that's not even getting into the dependence we have on "free" park & rides to fund suburban transit ridership. This may be cheaper and on rubber tires, but the Red Line (at least south of AVTS) is just like Northstar - bypassing existing places for the promise of new farm field development with abundant free parking.

SamHartmen

Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby SamHartmen » May 2nd, 2016, 1:41 pm

Please stop using "" it gives me the impression you take it personally when sombody disagrees with you.

Apple Valley has the right idea with the development plan around Kelley Park. Not the most walkable area but is rather bikeable. Also Dodd and Cedar has enough suburban development that some nice density would enhance the community, and would provide value by having a nice connected community within walking distance. Also the Airlake airport area does have a lot of existing businesses and is expanding, that should help move the proposed transit line towards being more successful.

Farmington is all single family homes, exception for 2 apartment buildings that are 3 floors. It's a transit line investment into the future. Those town core developed based on a car focused community. The corridor along Cedar has the potential to develop from scratch around a transit corridor. Northstar is a failure at encouraging much development because service is next to none! You can't compare a train line that provides 6 routes per day, with a BRT line that has service every 30 min.

Sure the Dan Patch would have been a better investment for getting a quicker return, and would be much less risky. Yet, long term I think the Red line has the potential to be the best investment. Over the next 30 years I think we will start to see the shift from people wanting to live in a cul de sac to people wanting to live next to one of these metro lines for fast transit to downtown(s).

I would disagree with your idea of building transit lines to existing suburban communities. In general those developments are very new, the likelihood they would be torn down and rebuilt with greater density is extremely low. The homes around uptown, and midway are very old so tearing them down is much more justifiable. Unless you think it's good planning to build a BRT line to a suburb such as farmington without expecting further development around the station, I don't see your logic.

mattaudio
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby mattaudio » May 2nd, 2016, 1:48 pm

Have you ever been to Downtowns Lakeville or Farmington? For historical context. Farmington:
Image
Lakeville:
Image

fehler
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby fehler » May 2nd, 2016, 2:00 pm

Shoot the middle between Lakeville and Farmington, follow Cedar Ave to Chub Lake, Castle Rock, and Northfield.

SamHartmen

Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby SamHartmen » May 2nd, 2016, 2:25 pm

The community has changed a lot since what the 1920's or 1800's. Have you been there recently?

Modern Lakeville:

Image

mattaudio
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby mattaudio » May 2nd, 2016, 2:27 pm

Unless you think it's good planning to build a BRT line to a suburb such as farmington without expecting further development around the station, I don't see your logic.
Modern Lakeville:
Thank you for proving my point.

SamHartmen

Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby SamHartmen » May 2nd, 2016, 2:39 pm

Your point is what? Downtown Lakeville has enough population for a LRT line as is? That is what you honestly believe?

mattaudio
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby mattaudio » May 2nd, 2016, 2:44 pm

It's the development pattern. The bones.

Tcmetro
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » May 2nd, 2016, 3:23 pm

I doubt that the Red Line Lakeville extension will attract any real TOD. The problem is that it is a secondary service (because everything is and will be designed for the car out there), and that it is regional (more useful for commuting than local needs). The idea that a bus with 15-30 min. frequency could impact development patterns is laughable.

We should remember that the Red Line attracts appx. 700-750 riders per day, and the CTIB funded expansion of express service is attracting less than 100. The initial phase of the project cost $160 million, and has not made any impact on mode share or congestion. Cedar Grove station project is going ahead, with little probable effect as well.

Extending the Red Line to Lakeville-181st St, Downtown Lakeville, or Downtown Farmington wouldn't achieve much. It would add significant bus hours that are likely to be used by very few. Instead connecting feeder routes from the Apple Valley Transit Station should be considered to provide connecting service to neighborhoods as opposed to highways, and service should be focused on span and coverage instead of frequency.

The other problem with expanding service in the area is the fact that Lakeville is part of Metro Transit and Farmington is not in the Transit Taxing District. Until these bureaucratic issues are resolved, I don't think that any bus service expansion will happen anytime soon.


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