7th Street Transit "Advantage" Bus Stops

[Nick]

Are there currently a lot of cars in that lane? I feel like there are pretty rarely any cars in that lane--the 5 and 19 and etc. all run at high enough frequencies, especially at rush hour, that cars generally avoid it. It's not like they're turning onto Nicollet.

[MNdible]

You raise a good point, Nick.

A compromise could be to have the third general traffic lane become right turn only at Marquette, and then become a bus only lane between there and Hennepin. You'd probably still need to provide a dedicated right turn lane at Hennepin.

7th already has that weird loading/parking lane on the right side that could also be rethought.

[Nick]

Well, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you--$xx,xxx-$xxx,xxx for a bus lane in a lane not really being used by cars?

[RailBaronYarr]

To answer the question of delay to motorists, the one-way pair on 7th/8th with dedicated lanes for buses (+ right turns, "Scenario 2") on each was estimated in the 2010 study to have a grand total impact on cars of 22 seconds across all intersections on 7th, 14 on 8th. None of the individual intersection LOS grades even changed. The report wasn't clear if that was using 2010 traffic counts or projected 2030 (or, if it is average daily delay or peak hour), as that appendix kinda jumped around. Either way, 2014 traffic counts in the corridor are still below 2010/11 numbers in many cases, if only slightly.

I'm sure that there are many times a day where a bus lane wouldn't improve transit travel time because traffic isn't terrible. I'm sure that going down to 2 thru lanes would have no impact to cars at the same time, though. I can say that during rush hours, cars definitely do use the rightmost lane, do refuse to yield to let buses back into the stream, and buses do wait for multiple light cycles between 4th Ave and Hennepin.

I don't know what the improvement would be. But considering over 1/3 of the corridor's users are in buses, don't you think it would have been worthwhile for the traffic engineers to evaluate the impact of shared lanes on them in addition to telling us the impact to drivers? If 33% of users save even a minute with a dedicated lane while the other 66% lose 22 seconds, isn't that a net societal win? Not even counting traffic calming/place making/equity.

[trigonalmayhem]

But that would require traffic engineers to consider transit riders as ... people. That's just a slippery slope down to having to worry about pedestrians and then it's game over, man.

[MNdible]

Stupid baby eating engineers.

Anyway, I don't get downtown during rush hour very often, but looking at the Streetview, it would appear that the loading lane that's currently there could effectively operate as a bus only lane right now, if it was properly enforced. No?

[trigonalmayhem]

Considering the police don't even bother trying to enforce the hennepin bus/bike lanes I wouldn't pin my hopes on enforcement.

[xandrex]

Is lack of enforcement of the Hennepin bus/bike/turn lane due to the fact that they realized they couldn't enforce it? I thought there was some legal opinion that told them that. Or maybe I'm making things up...

[RailBaronYarr]

Stupid baby eating engineers.

Anyway, I don't get downtown during rush hour very often, but looking at the Streetview, it would appear that the loading lane that's currently there could effectively operate as a bus only lane right now, if it was properly enforced. No?

Sure. That means no extended curbs for transit stops to free up sidewalk space, and assumes it could be enforced. I would imagine in that scenario you'd want to keep it as an off-peak parking lane? That might be easier to enforce with swift towing than a lane that cars would use as travel lanes off-peak (more confusion as to what the space is). The current curb extension at transit stops plan makes this impossible though.

If it's true that motorists would see a <30sec delay from end to end by converting a thru lane to bus lane, that's my long-term preference to free up sidewalk space & reduce the one- way from a 3 lane + left side parking to 2 lanes. That would calm traffic, particularly east of 3rd Ave.

[trigonalmayhem]

Is lack of enforcement of the Hennepin bus/bike/turn lane due to the fact that they realized they couldn't enforce it? I thought there was some legal opinion that told them that. Or maybe I'm making things up...

I don't recall hearing anything of the sort, but if that were the case I'd be interested to hear more.

Also enforcement would be less of an issue if they gave even half a shit in the design. Even something simple like those plastic bollards they had on 1st ave by the bike lanes when they first added them would do wonders. Put them between the lanes for the entire length of blocks with no right turn at the next intersection, then half way up the blocks with a right turn. Also clearer signs maybe telling people they can get over at that point to turn right. If you make it *look* more illegal to drive there fewer people will, even if they're no more likely to get fined.

[xandrex]

That's always been my preference - put up bollards, a curb of some sort, or use a different pavement material up until a specified time when cars can shift to that lane for right turns.

I imagine a physical barrier of any sort does come with the issue of snow removal though.

[trigonalmayhem]

Issues, yes, but hardly insurmountable ones. They exist plenty of places with snow and I get a little tired of powers that be using snow as an excuse to half ass everything they do.

[trigonalmayhem]

Plus I think a little leftover mound of snow between traffic and bus lanes creates an even more effective psychological barrier (;

[xandrex]

I don't disagree, but it's a roadblock (no pun intended) that needs to be fixed.

Seems like plastic bollards put up on a temp basis during the summer could be a good experiment to see how the taking of a lane might work, whether that be 7th Street, Hennepin, or another.

[RailBaronYarr]

A post with visuals and mostly the same things I said here already. https://streets.mn/2015/04/08/the-minnea ... hat-could/

[intercomnut]

From the upcoming TAAC Meeting:

http://www.metrocouncil.org/METC/files/ ... 1c3dac.pdf

Has detailed visualizations and plans for the shelters. I apologize if a version of this has been posted already.

[woofner]

I hope they don't plan to build the stops where they indicate in the 2nd slide of that presentation. I think it would delay the buses to require passengers to board them on the side that doesn't have doors (or maybe just the opposite?).

Did we talk yet about how the 19 isn't going to stop at Nicollet Mall anymore?

Thanks mods for putting "advantage" in quotes on this thread. More demeaningizing of the English language.

[mamundsen]

I don't get what you're saying. 7th runs west. The doors would be on the north side of the bus. Looks ok to me.

[woofner]

The 2nd slide depicts the stops on the south side of 7th street. If the buses traveling west on 7th were to stop there, their doors would be facing north, away from waiting passengers. It just occurred to me that maybe this is a hint that there will be a contraflow lane on 7th St, but I'm pretty sure that won't be the case.

Are you guys cool with the NB 19 not stopping at Nicollet Mall?

[EOst]

I'm pretty certain that those bus stops are meant to be on the north side of 7th.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with Nicollet Mall; it clearly does stop for Nicollet, simply on the far side.