Dinkytown Hotel - (1300 block of 4th Ave SE)

Northeast, Near North, Camden, Old St. Anthony, University and surrounding neighborhoods
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FISHMANPET
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby FISHMANPET » August 28th, 2013, 10:51 am

I know some you guys said you're not going to fight for this one, but I'd still encourage you to join the Dinkytown not Megatown Facebook group and throw in your voices.

I think the Save Dinkytown movement is an important one, and it can direct it's energy towards making sure that development in Dinkytown is good development. Right now the group is so full of vitriol that it's not useful as a protest movement. Save Dinkytown wants to freeze Dinkytown in time, whereas the City Council has explicitly said that Dinkytown is going to be changing. This movement runs the risk of marginalizing itself if all it can do is stand on the sidelines and scream "NO NO NO." We can amass a group of people that can work to improve Dinkytown, but first we have to convince them of that fact.

Maybe I'm a fool trying to herd cats, but damnit I'm going to keep trying, and I hope others help me out as well.

Here's a link to the group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/286949408093806/

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby RailBaronYarr » August 28th, 2013, 1:19 pm

There is... a LOT of vitriol. I applaud you for trying, I just don't know how much they'd appreciate what might seem like a barrage of pro-development trolls coming on with alternate views that challenge their rhetoric or question them to present facts to back it up. I can see myself getting quite frustrated with a lack of productive conversation, but I'm willing to give it a try.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby min-chi-cbus » August 28th, 2013, 1:57 pm

Bulldoze it all and provide Minneapolis urbanites a place to do their big-box suburban shopping without driving all the way out to the burbs! Problem solved, everyone.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby FISHMANPET » August 28th, 2013, 2:28 pm

Holy shit I've been accused of SEXISM because the person I'm trying to have a discussion with is a women.

MNdible
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby MNdible » August 28th, 2013, 3:20 pm

Well, so what? What's wrong with bein' sexy?

Silophant
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby Silophant » August 28th, 2013, 3:36 pm

I can't seem to post there. Not sure if it's my phone being weird or if I was banned after the Opus project went through. Major props for continuing to fight what sometimes seems to be a hopeless battle.

David Greene
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby David Greene » August 28th, 2013, 4:15 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:Holy shit I've been accused of SEXISM because the person I'm trying to have a discussion with is a women.
Thre sexism charge is weird, but you did get pretty snarky with them. It seems to me that you did puts words in her mouth a couple of times.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby FISHMANPET » August 28th, 2013, 4:19 pm

I'll be the first to admit that I'm pretty bad at internet arguing.

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Nathan
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby Nathan » August 28th, 2013, 4:40 pm

It's an interesting conversation that you are having on there now... Good luck. I don't feel like I have a place to interject yet, before they decide to kick us all out... but at least you guys are getting the relevant questions out there. I think a big thing is that they don't understand how much parking adds to the cost of a development, and how not entitled to it they are.

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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby David Greene » August 28th, 2013, 4:41 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:I'll be the first to admit that I'm pretty bad at internet arguing.
It's definitely a hard thing. I've made my own slipups, even on this board. :)

But arguing is not what we need right now.

With a group like SD I think we really have to go in humbly and first listen and understand what they have to say. My experience is that when people are passionate about something, they often can't express it clearly right away. It's a gut thing that takes time and reflection to express coherently. Unfortunately, too few of us have or take the time to do this. But in my experience helping people through a process like that builds relationships that can lead to productive action.

Arguing in a manner that looks for "gotcha" moments is a great way to get people to distrust you. When people make inconsistent arguments, don't harp on them about it. Help them through a process to clarify what it is they really care about. They're not being inconsistent in their minds. Their values are very consistent. They just literally can't express it in a rigorous manner.

It's not about facts and figures. Facts and figures almost never sway opinion. It's about relationships, values and passions. I'm pretty sure UrbanMSP and SD share a lot of the same values. What needs to happen is a coming together *in person* and taking time to get to know each other and understand where the mutual self-interest is.

Find 2-3 people from SD who are ready to explore a joint organizing effort and work with them. Facebook isn't the place to do that. Those 2-3 people can then go back to SD and recruit others.

I think there could be a really cool alliance built between UrbanMSP and SD to direct development in Dinkytown. Such a group should work with Marcy-Holmes. UrbanMSP folk bring expertise around zoning and development and SD folk bring expertise about the area and its residents. Each brings their strengths and weaknesses but I think the whole would be greater than the sum of the parts.
Last edited by David Greene on August 28th, 2013, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby David Greene » August 28th, 2013, 4:45 pm

fotoapparatic wrote:It's an interesting conversation that you are having on there now... Good luck. I don't feel like I have a place to interject yet, before they decide to kick us all out... but at least you guys are getting the relevant questions out there. I think a big thing is that they don't understand how much parking adds to the cost of a development, and how not entitled to it they are.
This is a good organizing case study. The first part of your last sentence is great! You're bringing expertise to the conversation and adding value. They probably won't get it right away. Keep trying humbly and respectfully.

The second part of your last sentence is bad from an organizing perspective. No one is going to listen to you if you call them "entitled." Find out what their real concern is. Is it traffic congestion? Is it having a hard time parking their own car? Something else? It's probably a lot fo things wrapped up under the heading of "parking." Find out and then explain how a different development paradigm can address the problems. Don't expect them to embrace it right away. Look for and accept new ideas and compromise.

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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby RailBaronYarr » August 28th, 2013, 5:13 pm

I'm confused... all of a sudden I can't see Tessa's responses on the comment area. I really would like to work with these folks. The internet may not be the best place, but I don't have time/proximity to do stuff in person and if I can help tease out some reasons behind their perceived pains it might help in addressing them or realizing some information they may not know (I've come nearly full circle on many urban issues since I started paying attention 2+ years ago).

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby FISHMANPET » August 28th, 2013, 5:18 pm

Maybe that means she's blocked you? I can still see her posts though and I'd assume she'd block me before you...

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Nick
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby Nick » August 28th, 2013, 5:19 pm

David Greene wrote:It's not about facts and figures. Facts and figures almost never sway opinion. It's about relationships, values and passions. I'm pretty sure UrbanMSP and SD share a lot of the same values. What needs to happen is a coming together *in person* and taking time to get to know each other and understand where the mutual self-interest is.

Find 2-3 people from SD who are ready to explore a joint organizing effort and work with them. Facebook isn't the place to do that. Those 2-3 people can then go back to SD and recruit others.

I think there could be a really cool alliance built between UrbanMSP and SD to direct development in Dinkytown. Such a group should work with Marcy-Holmes. UrbanMSP folk bring expertise around zoning and development and SD folk bring expertise about the area and its residents. Each brings their strengths and weaknesses but I think the whole would be greater than the sum of the parts.
I'd suggested this while talking with twincitizen a little while ago. My thought is that, instead of being reactionary about what's happening to them, it would be a way better use of resources to identify what's worth saving and try to set up some sort of historical preservation. I'd be all about that. Presumably, though, that would involve some compromise on their part.

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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby David Greene » August 28th, 2013, 5:26 pm

Nick wrote:I'd suggested this while talking with twincitizen a little while ago. My thought is that, instead of being reactionary about what's happening to them, it would be a way better use of resources to identify what's worth saving and try to set up some sort of historical preservation. I'd be all about that. Presumably, though, that would involve some compromise on their part.
Sure, this all sounds exactly right. There will be compromise from both groups. But the last thing we want to do is be critical about how they've gone about things. Remember, enter into the relationship humbly and with open minds.

I think we could go beyond simply setting up historic preservation. This has the potential to be a groundbreaking reisdent-led effort to define the communities people live in. Image such a group participating with developers to shape plans and with the city to create forward-looking visions. Imagine the group writing new zoning codes for Dinkytown to remove parking minimums, etc. Dinkytown could be sort of a pilot area to test and prove changes to Minneapolis zoning codes, for example.

Tom H.
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby Tom H. » September 9th, 2013, 12:12 pm

The guy behind me in line at Mesa Pizza today asked the manager* about the potential redevelopment. He (the manager) seemed quite peeved and said that he'd been asked this question a lot, and doesn't think it will happen. He claims that Mesa has 4.5 years left on their lease, CamDi has 6 years, and Publika is in the first year of a 10-year lease, so (in his opinion) these businesses are locked in for the foreseeable future. Of course, many leases have termination clauses, so this all might be meaningless, but it's interesting to hear the story from one of the involved parties.

* At least, I think he's the manager. He's been there literally every time I've ever been to Mesa - the tall guy with the ponytail. He may even be the owner, for all I know.

mattaudio
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby mattaudio » September 9th, 2013, 12:34 pm

The Book House had years left in a lease too. I can't imagine there's a lease without some sort of option for the landlord to terminate with x days notice and potentially some sort of fee.

mhwbkr
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby mhwbkr » September 9th, 2013, 4:28 pm

You're probably right that there are ways to get around a lease, but the Book House (and Podium) aren't the best example. The 3-year lease the Book House signed 2 months before finding out HoH was selling was designed to allow HoH to boot us. They inserted a 60-day notice to vacate clause that had never been there. Essentially, they gave us month-to-month lease without telling us they'd had an offer on the building.

I assume Camdi, Mesa, and the others would need to be bought out of their leases.

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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby Silophant » September 9th, 2013, 5:04 pm

Related: the WaHu development in Stadium Village was stalled for a long time because the plasma center was having trouble relocating. I expect that if it had been easy to break their lease and kick them out so construction could have started a year ago, they would have done so.

VAStationDude
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Re: Doran Dinkytown Development

Postby VAStationDude » September 9th, 2013, 7:04 pm

I suppose it's possible but I doubt Doran would go through all this trouble if he couldn't get out of the leases.


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