Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Northeast, Near North, Camden, Old St. Anthony, University and surrounding neighborhoods
Silophant
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby Silophant » April 17th, 2017, 7:32 pm

Agreed.

grant1simons2
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby grant1simons2 » April 17th, 2017, 7:45 pm

I use the forum as a database for construction in the city, so it's easier if they're seperate threads. Saves a lot of time searching for height and unit count.

mnjimn
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby mnjimn » April 19th, 2017, 2:10 pm

I'm surprised to see the auto shop still there next to the future Phase 3. Nothing against the shop but it's going look really out of place on that corner.

go4guy
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby go4guy » April 19th, 2017, 5:54 pm

Might be cool to change the auto shop into a restaurant.

MattW
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby MattW » April 20th, 2017, 10:06 am

go4guy wrote:
April 19th, 2017, 5:54 pm
Might be cool to change the auto shop into a restaurant.
Was in Boston this past weekend and came across this. Former fire station or auto shop, now a gym. https://goo.gl/maps/vG69D9PA4e22

grant1simons2
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby grant1simons2 » May 2nd, 2017, 1:56 pm


grant1simons2
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby grant1simons2 » May 9th, 2017, 4:32 pm


bapster2006
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby bapster2006 » June 15th, 2017, 5:50 pm

Trying to demonstrate a height comparison.

ImageNord Haus construction Minneapolis 6-15-17 by Matt Bappe, on Flickr

Biggydrink
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby Biggydrink » June 29th, 2017, 8:20 am

Pricing and floor plans available now too:

http://livenordhaus.com/floor-plans/

David Greene
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby David Greene » June 29th, 2017, 9:25 am

How do these prices compare with other new construction in the city? The studios seem outrageously expensive but the one bedrooms really aren't much more than I paid in the North Loop in 2003 (admittedly, I probably overpaid). The two bedrooms range from almost double to well over double my mortgage in the Wedge! The three bedroom (like our house) with similar square footage exceeds *three times* our mortgage payment.

I dunno. If people say they can't afford to buy in the Wedge but can live in these places, I'm going to have to call them on their B.S.

amiller92
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby amiller92 » June 29th, 2017, 9:57 am

When we were thinking about moving out of our downtown condo, one option I looked at was similarly-sized units in the newer buildings downtown (in part, we were looking for a place where we could have pets). Rents were way more than our existing (high) condo fees + mortgage (small) and I wasn't looking to put more of our resources toward housing, so I never got beyond a quick look at the rents. These prices seem a few hundred or so a month higher than back then.

So, yeah, living in one of these places is roughly equivalent to buying among the higher-priced houses in south Minneapolis (that aren't Lowry Hill or lakes mansions).

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 29th, 2017, 10:05 am

I like having this conversation time and again.

People are at different places in their lives with different spending priorities than you. They'd rather not spend (or they don't have!) the $20-40k required to make a down payment on a $400k+ house (there are none listed in the Wedge for under $400k right now) or a $275-325k new-construction condo (2BA, 1-2BA), or a $375k 2BR 1 BA new construction townhome. The all-in monthly cost (PIT+insurance) on anything for sale or recently sold in the Wedge will be easily $2,000/mo or more, and if you bought a home, that doesn't include the upkeep and maintenance costs you bear (I just spent 4 digits on a new water heater on Tuesday! yay!). So someone could be making a wise financial decision if they only plan on staying in this part of the city, or in MSP generally, for a few years by not blowing tens of thousands on a down payment, and running a good chance they'll take a dive on selling (after realtor fees, etc) in a few years with no equity built up.

It's also likely many of the people renting these units just have different tastes than you. They may prefer the views afforded by the fourth+ story in a part of town like this. They may place a huge premium on immediate walkability (every block they walk along out their door has food/shops). Or proximity to downtown (closer than the Wedge!). Or attached, heated garages. Or the brand new finishes inside. Or the riverfront. Or the security of being in an access-controlled building rather than a 100 year old house.

Also. It's more than likely the people that will rent out the $4,300/mo 3BR units could afford to buy a house in the Wedge for $500k. They're likely rich snowbirds who want a great place to stay in MN during the nice season. Or executives without kids who'd rather have a short commute. Or something. And boy am I glad this place is offering them a place to live.

David Greene
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby David Greene » June 29th, 2017, 10:20 am

I'm not saying all renters are dumb or anything of that sort (but some are!). I'm simply pointing out that these calculations are complicated. I certainly view quality of life as #1 and if these apartments get someone that, go for it! If someone is going to live in a place short-term, I would certainly advise renting over owning.

Our mortgage + insurance + taxes + utilities is still well below the rents in these units. I haven't calculated a monthly figure for maintenance over the period I've owned the house so I don't know how close we'd be after factoring that in. But we also have more than the structure and we're building equity.

Like I said, it's not clear-cut and people make different choices for very valid reasons. But I do hear a lot that one of the reasons people rent is that they think home ownership is too expensive. It's just not, if you're in it for more than, say, five years. Renting more cheaply would certainly allow one to accrue a down payment in a reasonable amount of time. It's something I wish I had done when I were younger. Looking back, I should have rented that $800 place near MCAD. :)

One of the things I love about the Wedge is the housing diversity. 80% renters, yes, but even for owners there is a wide range, from sub-$300k up to million dollar homes. The rents at Nordhaus would put one in the $800,000 range in terms of mortgage payment and with that you'd definitely be on the much larger end of house size with much more square footage than these apartments. You'd be upper-crust Wedge. No, that doesn't factor in insurance, etc. but it also doesn't factor in the land and equity opportunity.

This is, I think, important to keep in mind as we consider redevelopment of our neighborhoods. Assembling 3-4 lots of cheaper houses is relatively easy. But as soon as you tear those houses down (most of which will in fact be duplexes or higher density) and put something with these rents up, you may have created more housing overall but you have definitely reduced the available "affordable" housing, at least in the medium term (20 years?).

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 29th, 2017, 11:25 am

Most of my disagreement with your post comes in the last two paragraphs, which aren't really germane to the Nord Haus project itself. I will say, it is interesting to hear you tout homeownership and the value of gaining equity (which is only had when land values rise, without which depreciation + finance costs far outweigh any equity gained by gaining ownership stake in the home itself) in one breath and then tout how preserving these homes is a path to affordability in another. From one well-off white male urban single family homeowner to another, we both know - deep down - that our choice to own a home isn't helping anyone else's housing affordability. And that there are so so many tax and finance structures that make that 5-year break even point a reality. People like you and me are just as likely to tear down a cheap duplex to build our dream home or renovate the old one, as a developer is to tear it down (or some property manager is to just raise the rents after putting on new finishes - they made a whole show about it!).

Anyway, new construction is expensive, water is wet, etc.

David Greene
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby David Greene » June 29th, 2017, 1:27 pm

Hmm. I am in no financial position to buy a house to tear it down and build a dream home, even if I weren't currently paying for a house. Perhaps I need a better job. :) I mean I guess I *could* do so if I stopping paying for/doing some other things that improve my quality of life and scrimped and saved to get a loan to do so, but it's just not something I or frankly most people want to do.

Of course when anyone claims something physical, it is not available to others. So no one buying *or renting* is helping the availability of affordable housing for others. It's not just owners so I don't really get the point of that argument.

And you and I have long agreed about certain financial incentives for ownership that should just go away. FWIW I've never calculated those incentives into any decision about whether or what to buy. No one with any financial sense should do so.

But there is something to not tearing down old houses (or apartment buildings!) without somehow preserving that relatively affordable housing in some way. We could require new developments to provide the same number of roughly similar units at roughly similar price points. We could require offsetting affordable housing projects someone else "close by."

Renovation may be harder. It's not realistic to prevent renovations or require renovations to leave some units at similar prices. I don't have any good ideas here, though I'd love to hear some.

My point in all of this isn't to argue for old houses or ownership or even present solutions. It's more like, "here are some of my thoughts and ideas and here is what some in the neighborhoods are likely thinking about when they have what appear to be knee-jerk and/or disingenuous reactions to development." I'm more interested in getting people talking and exchanging ideas than I am in supporting any one "side."

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 29th, 2017, 2:22 pm

I would say that a post bemoaning how expensive brand new units are in a different part of town and comparing them to the cost of your living situation (which, btw, does not mirror actual SFH pricing in your neighborhood now) is somewhat knee-jerk and in a different context (say, a neighborhood org meeting) doesn't really help move people toward solutions.

FWIW, I agree with you that in situations where a development boots out renters (as opposed to a homesteader cashing out), they should be required to do something. Maybe it's money, maybe it's providing moving assistance, or a guaranteed unit and temporary housing. This is a case where development is actively displacing people (even if it helps with overall and long-term affordability), as opposed to development on former lumberyards, or in this case a streetcar barn, that isn't directly impacting anyone (and why I generally dislike IZ unless it's funded in part by public $).

go4guy
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby go4guy » June 29th, 2017, 7:50 pm

I am currently 35 and have been a homeowner for 6 years now. I had a good job a few years out of college, but rented for one reason. I didn't save enough for a down payment for a new home. My focus was on traveling all over, going out with friends 2-3 times a week. Other friends were in the same boat. Most don't want to put only 5% down on a new home, because Mortgage Insurance is just throwing money away. Once I, and many like me, settled down a bit more into our careers and were able to focus on saving, then buying a house was a more viable option. But most in their 20's aren't ready to settle down, and I think that is the target market these type of buildings focus on.

amiller92
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby amiller92 » June 30th, 2017, 8:51 am

David Greene wrote:
June 29th, 2017, 1:27 pm
And you and I have long agreed about certain financial incentives for ownership that should just go away. FWIW I've never calculated those incentives into any decision about whether or what to buy. No one with any financial sense should do so.
Huh? Lots of people believe the mortgage interest deduction should go away, but that doesn't mean it will anytime soon or that you shouldn't factor it into your housing decisions.

David Greene
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby David Greene » June 30th, 2017, 10:10 am

amiller92 wrote:
June 30th, 2017, 8:51 am
Huh? Lots of people believe the mortgage interest deduction should go away, but that doesn't mean it will anytime soon or that you shouldn't factor it into your housing decisions.
Well, I tend to be very financially conservative. If figure if a few thousand bucks a year is going to make or break my ability to pay, I'm probably skirting the edge too closely.

amiller92
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Re: Nord Haus - 315 1st Ave NE (208' - 20 Stories)

Postby amiller92 » June 30th, 2017, 11:00 am

That I agree with, but still, the mortgage interest deduction means that nominal mortgage payment X is actually cheaper than rent of X.


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