Northeast and Southeast Minneapolis - General Topics

[MNdible]

I'm not sure I'd call that lovely -- cool and old, yes, but it looks cobbled together and strange to my eyes.

Anyway, this would be a fantastic site for a new prominent structure. I'm sure they'd never do it, because it would be complicated and expensive and wouldn't add very much usable square footage, but it would be fun if they built a structure over the 5th Street ROW to make this a true flatiron type building.

[HiawathaGuy]

The current owner (Guita B Gordon Et Al Trstes) only owns the triangle lot. It has not local or Fedearl historic designation. The current building was built in 1971.

[twincitizen]

Anyone who has ever commented in this thread about returning Hennepin/1st to two-ways, or the Superior Plating site, or about the USBank/Surdyk's/West Photo block, or streetcar operations in this area, should absolutely read the Nicollet Island-East Bank Neighborhood (NIEBNA) Small Area Plan: http://www.niebna.com/docs/sap/approved ... -10-17.pdf

Seriously, it's all in there. They used Streetmix!

I'm still really torn about the two-way conversion. In the absence of transit, yes absolutely it should be done. However, keeping the streets one-ways presents an incredible opportunity for faster transit speeds, protected bike lanes, etc. Their vision for two-ways appears to be a 3-lane profile (1 lane each direction with center turn lane) and parking on both sides where possible, for both streets. They do show an alternative for Hennepin with an eastbound protected bike lane instead of a parking lane, but it seems like businesses would really not go for that.

I feel like they really ought to seek some grant money from the city and Hennepin County to do a comprehensive transportation study to figure out how to make everything in this area work better. Two-ways seem like the obvious answer to traffic calming in a vacuum, but given the bridge approach, and streetcars, I'm not convinced it's the right answer.

[mattaudio]

Two way traffic on 1st, two way streetcars on Hennepin.

[twincitizen]

How about the inverse? I kinda like the idea of putting two-way streetcars on 1st to allow faster speeds (less traffic congestion) and better facilitate the turn to/from Central, unimpeded by traffic. Streetcar ROW could be the southernmost two lanes of 1st Ave, abutting the gross blank walls of Pinnacle (allowing for a narrow slip lane in there to access their parking ramp).

Looking at the land uses along 1st Ave NE today, the attractive/active frontages are all on the north side of the street, soon to be joined by the Superior Plating blocks. On the south side of 1st Ave, it's all pretty ugly stuff, and nothing there today demands on-street parking. I'm thinking about political feasibility here of trying to fit in an exclusive or minimally shared ROW for streetcars. The southern half of 1st Ave seems like a match. In parts of the corridor, you could retain two lanes for cars, with the northern/outer lane allowing off-peak parking and right turns (at Univeristy, at Main)

[MNdible]

Can somebody explain to me why, besides a general "OMG one way streets are bad" gut reaction, we'd go through a bunch of rigmarole to make this conversion and generally muck everything up in this area, rather than a much more elegant solution like the one Twincitizen proposed?

To me, a pair of calmed one ways with well integrated transit and bike lanes seems like a great solution here that doesn't require reinventing the wheel, and will also still allow for non-excruciating through traffic for automobiles (I know that's counter to the wishes of many on the forum).

[RailBaronYarr]

I'm in agreement that a pair of calmed one-ways with fewer lanes and space given over to cycle tracks and transit is the optimal solution here. I do think two lanes of one-way traffic will move a bit faster than another design (in this context I'm saying that's bad), and they present a double threat (or reason for everyone to just blindly continue driving if someone is waiting to legally cross), but the tradeoff seems worth it to me to keep a reasonable car flow (in this sense I'm saying it's "not bad"). The other consideration for a two-way streetcar on 1st and 2-way cars on Hennepin is the transit advantage of lines running down the same street - you don't lose out bi-directional walk-shed that way. It's probably a close call, but I think a pair of calmed one ways could work quite well for this area. Plenty of examples in nice European cities.

[mattaudio]

The only calm one way street is a one lane one way street. If we can do that, fine. Otherwise multiple lanes just encourages speeding and other aggressive (deadly) driving behaviors. I see it every day on Park, Portland, 26th, and Blaisdell. I agree, the automatic reaction to one way couplets is not nuanced, but whatever happens we cannot tolerate 3 lanes (or ideally even two) of one way traffic.

[mattaudio]

The one thing that I wish was discussed more regarding the configuration here... what would be better for reclaiming the northern intersections? Hennepin/Central is a skewed cluster of an intersection. The westbound Hennepin/ 7th St/ 1st Ave jog feels like a racetrack. Stubs like 6th St's jog at Central create more chaos than connectivity. What configuration would do the best at solving this at a human scale? Especially a fix of Central/Hennepin which is possibly the worst skewed angle intersection in town.

[twincitizen]

Hence the need for a comprehensive transportation study. The neighborhood could use their strong (but not absolute) preference for two-ways and translate that into a "compromise" for considerable traffic calming and aesthetic improvements throughout the corridor. Peter McLaughlin has signaled that he could potentially support changes, so that at least keeps Hennepin County transportation from saying "NO NO NO" to everything. With streetcars coming, as well as a massive influx of residents to the area, now is the perfect time to get the study moving. I'd probably start by contacting Jacob Frey and Peter McLaughlin to see what their thoughts are on funding a study. It won't be cheap, that's for sure.

[MNdible]

Not particularly in response to anything, except for maybe the potential outcomes of a transportation study:

The nature of a big river with limited bridge crossings is that you're going to concentrate traffic. Many of these people are going to be in cars. It's not ideal, but it's part of the reality on the ground.

[mattaudio]

The reality on the ground can chance, just as it did decades ago when this reality was created by policy and investment choices.

[acs]

Speaking of the streetcar, do you guys realize that this thing will have 18 stops on its 3.4 mile route? It doesn't even average close to 1/4 mile spacing compared to 1/2 mile on the A line. The neighborhood doesn't give a shit about faster transit speeds or what impact a two way conversion would have on them, because the city is perfectly fine with putting five stops in the neighborhood including at both main and University. The neighborhood is pretty much saying, "If the city is giving us this much, let's just go all in with traffic calming since transit isn't going to move well through here anyways. With luck we'll be the next uptown." I really don't blame them, they pretty much have a blank slate to work with and a great location that the city is looking to dump some money on. I'd probably do the same thing in their position.

[MNdible]

I'd wager that there were probably traffic jams leading up to the first Hennepin Avenue suspension bridge on the day it opened, a century and a half ago.

[EOst]

Speaking of the streetcar, do you guys realize that this thing will have 18 stops on its 3.4 mile route? It doesn't even average close to 1/4 mile spacing compared to 1/2 mile on the A line... because the city is perfectly fine with putting five stops in the neighborhood including at both main and University.

The most recent planning document actually has eliminated the two redundant stops at Main and University. The stops now are Nicollet Island, 2nd, and 4th (and 7th if they do the extended version).

Besides, the two aren't directly comparable. Snelling is an important and reasonably dense corridor, but it's not Nicollet, which is one of the most destination-heavy corridors in the cities. The area south of 94 could probably have a stop removed (I'd consolidate 28th and 26th to one stop at 27th myself) but what else could you eliminate? Lake is essential; 24th is the MIA; Franklin is a major corridor; 18th serves dense Stevens and Loring (and has some great redevelopment potential). Then you're downtown(/might-as-well-be-downtown Old St. Anthony), and even the light rail stops every 2-3 blocks downtown.

In fact, if you look at the Arterial study, this is actually fewer stops than the arterial bus would've made, and that would have been a 20% speed increase.

[RailBaronYarr]

I'd wager that there were probably traffic jams leading up to the first Hennepin Avenue suspension bridge on the day it opened, a century and a half ago.

At least the private builder tolled those who crossed and enforced a strict speed limit (no jogging)

[MplsSteve]

I've noticed that recently there have been crews drilling samples at the triangle lot where Hennepin and Central intersect. I think the address is 420 E Hennepin. Is there a proposal for this site?

There is a "Now Leasing" sign on the site now. I noticed it on the way to work this morning. I wasn't paying very close attention, but I believe it was Java Properties. Weren't they going to redevelop the warehouse building at 700 Central Ave?

[Didier]

Wait, why would the streetcar stop at Nicollet Island and not at Main Street?

[lordmoke]

Wait, why would the streetcar stop at Nicollet Island and not at Main Street?

As far as placement goes, everything located on the island is pulled away from Hennepin pretty far, the structures nearest the street having been leveled in the 70's, so even getting to a bridge crossing is a healthy walk for anyone who needs to get to/ from an island destination. by contrast, walking straight across a short Hennepin bridge isn't too far from Main Street. Either you're adding a small amount to an already long walk, or a small amount to a negligibly short one.

If you were wondering why there's a stop for the island at all, there are a high school, hotel, heavily used event pavilion, and about 150 people living on the island.

[Didier]

But in comparison, Main Street almost certainly had more housing and more restaurants than the island, not to mention offices. I guess there's no perfect solution but Main Street seems to have many more destinations than the island.