Montage (Nye's redevelopment) - 116 E Hennepin Avenue

Northeast, Near North, Camden, Old St. Anthony, University and surrounding neighborhoods
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FISHMANPET
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby FISHMANPET » September 15th, 2015, 9:42 am

I'm not going to pretend that housing is a 100% perfectly fluid free market with perfectly rational actors with perfect information etc etc.

But seriously, are we just gonna say that more people wanting housing than housing exists isn't a supply problem that can be met with more housing?
Last edited by FISHMANPET on September 15th, 2015, 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

LakeCharles
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby LakeCharles » September 15th, 2015, 9:44 am

David Greene wrote:
FISHMANPET wrote:The problem of affordable housing in most cases is not evil developers conspiring to keep prices high or whatever, but a simple lack of supply.
No, it isn't that simple. The world doesn't work as it does in Econ 101.
So what is another way? Asking honestly. We do have a demand problem, at least to my eyes. So if you don't want to increase the supply, what are other solutions?

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby nickmgray » September 15th, 2015, 9:48 am

I'm a fan of the new proposal. Yes, more density is always better, but the tower they were proposing was always awkward and didn't offer a very good street presence.

I love towers, but they don't always work. A good building needs to have a welcoming street presence and offer something to the community. This proposal looks like it does that perfectly. The neighborhood is slated to get a few towers in the next year or two, so there will be plenty of options for those who want something a bit more upscale with a view.

trigonalmayhem

Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby trigonalmayhem » September 15th, 2015, 9:57 am

FISHMANPET already summed up my thoughts on this better than I could have, but I can't help feeling there's always some tinge of jealousy involved in this. Like because someone can't personally afford a new apartment building they hate it and can't see how adding more units at whatever price helps the overall housing market. If people keep killing and shrinking every new proposal we'll end up like San Fransisco where everyone but the rich have been completely priced out of the city because they won't add new supply.

And I'm all for subsidized housing for the poor, but you can't expect private developers to fix that problem alone. You need to direct your anger and pressure at the government to actually start putting money towards this kind of thing, not private investors with a profit motive. Even if you hate how greedy and money grubbing they are (and I often do) they're still providing a valuable service by adding housing to the area.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby mplsjaromir » September 15th, 2015, 10:20 am

The thing that harms affordable housing supply the most isn't speculative luxury development. It is incumbent landowners who value old buildings for old building's sake and community input over facing the actual needs of society. It is a great sickness that affects Europe and North America.

I would be happy with more subsidized housing, but the where is the money going to come from?

I think the city of Minneapolis is very forward thinking. The council for the most part "gets it", they know that raising enough money to build enough affordable housing, while simultaneously restraining market rate new construction that doesn't offend local sensibilities is a fool's errand.

Outside of actively making more areas of the city unpleasant, the only thing the city government can do to keep housing prices down is try and encourage development to areas that are not currently occupied. New housing units are net positive. Rich people are always going to have their first pick of where to live, best to let them live in the areas they want to live. Otherwise you will see real displacement.

trigonalmayhem

Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby trigonalmayhem » September 15th, 2015, 10:31 am

mplsjaromir wrote:The thing that harms affordable housing supply the most isn't speculative luxury development. It is incumbent landowners who value old buildings for old building's sake and community input over facing the actual needs of society. It is a great sickness that affects Europe and North America.
This is probably the most poetic way of saying NIMBY that I've ever seen. Bravo and kudos to you, sir.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby beige_box » September 15th, 2015, 10:37 am

FISHMANPET wrote: If your solution to housing is to just forklift a communist or socialist economy to replace our free market capitalism, then good luck.
When did I say that was my solution? Nor did I say that limiting the housing supply was my solution. My solution was to have the government intervene and build more housing for low-income families in the neighborhood, as a way to permanently ward off development that's catered to wealthy people who are willing to pay premiums if it means not having to see non-White people, disabled people and so on. Capitalist developers can still very easily turn a profit within those constraints.
FISHMANPET wrote:So let's stop trying to make capitalists not be capitalists, and instead let them be capitalists. Let's let them build so many luxury units that there's no money left in it anymore! Then they'll have no choice but to build more affordable. And what if they overbuild on luxury units? Then they go bankrupt and the housing becomes more affordable. The horror!
Well, yes, if you only look at the long-term outlook, that doesn't sound so bad. But there are around 4 million people who comprise the Twin Cities market, most of whom are White and for various reasons have more socioeconomic mobility than the minorities that mostly live within the city limits. Waiting for the luxury market to overbuild itself before trying to accommodate those in the market for affordable-ish housing would take decades. In the short-term meantime, that means radically disrupting and breaking up existing communities within Minneapolis, and yes, forcing most of those people out in to the suburbs. This would be a social catastrophe with negative consequences that would span generations.
trigonalmayhem wrote:I can't help feeling there's always some tinge of jealousy involved in this. Like because someone can't personally afford a new apartment building they hate it and can't see how adding more units at whatever price helps the overall housing market.
Are you kidding me? I've only lived in old properties in South Minneapolis, and I love it. Every room has a window--even the bathroom! I have a garden! It's cheap! My quality of life is high and I don't have to overwork myself to support it. I could see myself raising a family in these conditions. I don't want anything more than this. Unfortunately, I know full well that current housing policy means this is unsustainable in the long-term for me, and more importantly, for those less advantaged than me.
mplsjaromir wrote:The thing that harms affordable housing supply the most isn't speculative luxury development. It is incumbent landowners who value old buildings for old building's sake and community input over facing the actual needs of society. It is a great sickness that affects Europe and North America.
I agree, except I think the problem is both luxury speculative development and NIMBY preservationism working in tandem. We need to overcome the private-development-versus-NIMBY debate. I am equally opposed to both sides.
mplsjaromir wrote:I would be happy with more subsidized housing, but the where is the money going to come from?
In some ways, it's already there: we threw down half a billion for a useless stadium! But I'd be happy to pay more taxes if it meant being able to sustain the wonderful quality of life I experience in South Minneapolis without eventually being priced out.
trigonalmayhem wrote:[Y]ou can't expect private developers to fix that problem alone. You need to direct your anger and pressure at the government to actually start putting money towards this kind of thing, not private investors with a profit motive.
I know! That's what I'm trying to do, at least within the confines of this rather niche online forum. We need to change the conversation away from trying to attract private developers to build whatever they want in order to get the shallow aesthetics of a "streetscape with good urbanism" or whatever, and start building political momentum toward government intervention that preserves what makes urban life desirable in the first place: community, opportunity, diversity, stability. If you truly value those things, there's no need to push back at me for pointing out the flaws in the development status quo. In fact, it'd be great if you joined me.
Last edited by beige_box on September 15th, 2015, 10:45 am, edited 3 times in total.

amiller92
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby amiller92 » September 15th, 2015, 10:40 am

beige_box wrote:many of whom would likely rent a 1-bedroom here while still owning a two-car-garage home in Maple Grove
Does anyone actually do this?
In truth, a massive influx of wealthy older folks eager to flex their disposable incomes would do nothing to offset demand coming from younger people with a radically different set of concerns, and probably just lead instead to an inflation of prices in the neighborhood.
This is an obvious false dichotomy.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby amiller92 » September 15th, 2015, 10:45 am

mplsjaromir wrote:The thing that harms affordable housing supply the most isn't speculative luxury development. It is incumbent landowners who value old buildings for old building's sake and community input over facing the actual needs of society. It is a great sickness that affects Europe and North America.

I would be happy with more subsidized housing, but the where is the money going to come from?

I think the city of Minneapolis is very forward thinking. The council for the most part "gets it", they know that raising enough money to build enough affordable housing, while simultaneously restraining market rate new construction that doesn't offend local sensibilities is a fool's errand.

Outside of actively making more areas of the city unpleasant, the only thing the city government can do to keep housing prices down is try and encourage development to areas that are not currently occupied. New housing units are net positive. Rich people are always going to have their first pick of where to live, best to let them live in the areas they want to live. Otherwise you will see real displacement.
This

beige_box
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby beige_box » September 15th, 2015, 10:47 am

amiller92, I spent a long time writing a series of responses to those comments you are quoting. Please read them and engage with them instead of trying to derail them with content-free spam comments that add nothing.

For those interested, here's a permalink: https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f=14& ... 214#p98211

amiller92
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby amiller92 » September 15th, 2015, 10:50 am

beige_box wrote: My solution was to have the government intervene and build more housing for low-income families in the neighborhood, as a way to permanently ward off development that's catered to wealthy people who are willing to pay premiums if it means not having to see non-White people, disabled people and so on.
Your solution sounds terrible. Especially for the people you're apparently concerned about.

beige_box
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby beige_box » September 15th, 2015, 10:55 am

How is building housing for low-income people in neighborhoods they otherwise wouldn't be able to afford "terrible" for those people? NIEBNA isn't going to turn into a ghetto if you add a couple public housing projects. It will just become slightly less desirable to only the worst sort of wealthy person. It will remain stable and vibrant for everyone else. You're just trolling. For those who only scroll to the bottom, again, here's a permalink to some debate with actual substance: https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f=14& ... 214#p98211

mplsjaromir
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby mplsjaromir » September 15th, 2015, 10:58 am

In some ways, it's already there: we threw down half a billion for a useless stadium! But I'd be happy to pay more taxes if it meant being able to sustain the wonderful quality of life I experience in South Minneapolis without eventually being priced out.
You do realize that the city would have to use general funds to pay for increased affordable housing, don't you? The state legislature would have to approve of how special consumption tax would be spent. Again I am not opposed to the idea, but it's more difficult than just letting more development happen.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby schmitzm03 » September 15th, 2015, 10:59 am

@beige_box, is it fair to say that your solution to the affordability crisis is to build affordable housing in desirable neighborhoods as a means of discouraging high income/wealth households from living there? That is how I read this quote in your post above:
beige_box wrote:My solution was to have the government intervene and build more housing for low-income families in the neighborhood, as a way to permanently ward off development that's catered to wealthy people who are willing to pay premiums if it means not having to see non-White people, disabled people and so on. Capitalist developers can still very easily turn a profit within those constraints.
If that is the case, then how would you avoid the concentration of poverty and concomitant negative effects that may ensue? The effects of concentrated poverty are well-researched and appear to be significant. (Sorry for not posting anything to back this up but I assume people on this board are familiar with this well-tread topic, so let me know if I should.)

Also, if your position is that market rate housing should not be built in this neighborhood (this is at the very least the implication of your solution quoted above), do you believe your solution is applicable to only this neighborhood? Other neighborhoods? The city as a whole? Is there a place for market rate housing? If so, where?

David Greene
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby David Greene » September 15th, 2015, 11:05 am

LakeCharles wrote:
David Greene wrote:
FISHMANPET wrote:The problem of affordable housing in most cases is not evil developers conspiring to keep prices high or whatever, but a simple lack of supply.
No, it isn't that simple. The world doesn't work as it does in Econ 101.
So what is another way? Asking honestly. We do have a demand problem, at least to my eyes. So if you don't want to increase the supply, what are other solutions?
Who said anything about not increasing supply? I said it's not as simple as supply and demand. Supply and demand still plays a role. But supply alone is not enough, as others on this thread have pointed out.

beige_box
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby beige_box » September 15th, 2015, 11:10 am

schmitzm03 wrote:@beige_box, is it fair to say that your solution to the affordability crisis is to build affordable housing in desirable neighborhoods as a means of discouraging high income/wealth households from living there?
Not all high-income households in general, but the high-income households who are actively looking to pay a premium for excluding minorities and poor people from their neighborhood. That's where the really toxic real estate valuation happens.
schmitzm03 wrote:If that is the case, then how would you avoid the concentration of poverty and concomitant negative effects that may ensue?
I'm not super convinced that concentration of poverty (especially the "racially concentrated" poverty idea) is a real problem if the government actually commits to providing services to those areas. But even if it is, building low-income housing in a place like NIEBNA is not going to turn it into a concentration of poverty, just a mixed neighborhood that's vibrant and desirable to people who aren't afraid of the diversity of real urban life. E.g. how Loring Park, Stevens Square, the Wedge, Whittier, Seward, Powderhorn and much of Northeast already are.
schmitzm03 wrote:Also, if your position is that market rate housing should not be built in this neighborhood (this is at the very least the implication of your solution quoted above), do you believe your solution is applicable to only this neighborhood? Other neighborhoods? The city as a whole? Is there a place for market rate housing? If so, where?
OK, maybe NIEBNA can have some more market-rate housing. What concerns me is that what gets to be called "market-rate" will only go up and up if it's not balanced out with affordable housing that's stabilized by public support in some way.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby amiller92 » September 15th, 2015, 11:13 am

beige_box wrote:How is building housing for low-income people in neighborhoods they otherwise wouldn't be able to afford "terrible" for those people?
That part isn't. This part is:
as a way to permanently ward off development that's catered to wealthy people
NIEBNA isn't going to turn into a ghetto if you add a couple public housing projects.
It will if you're successful in keeping others out, which is what you said you want to do.
It will just become slightly less desirable to only the worst sort of wealthy person. It will remain stable and vibrant for everyone else.
I get where you're coming from, but I don't think the kind of fine tuning you want is possible. In practical terms, it's not possible because there is no pool of money to build the public housing you want (which, yes, we should have more of). But it's also not theoretically possible to make it just undesirable enough to be vibrant and appealing but not vibrant and appealing enough for those people.

I take your point about a tower with lots of amenities keeping its value longer. That could be the dominating factor in the right set of circumstances. For the foreseeable future, however, the supply shortage seems more likely to dominate, such that even the non-tower units will sustain pretty high prices.

amiller92
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby amiller92 » September 15th, 2015, 11:22 am

beige_box wrote: the high-income households who are actively looking to pay a premium for excluding minorities and poor people from their neighborhood.
Do these people exist? Or are they like the baby boomers who have house in Maple Grove and a one-bedroom downtown?
I'm not super convinced that concentration of poverty (especially the "racially concentrated" poverty idea) is a real problem if the government actually commits to providing services to those areas.
I have no faith that the government can or will commit to providing services to those areas, for all kinds of reasons including race. Nor do I think government services alone can ever be enough.
But even if it is, building low-income housing in a place like NIEBNA is not going to turn it into a concentration of poverty, just a mixed neighborhood that's vibrant and desirable to people who aren't afraid of the diversity of real urban life. E.g. how Loring Park, Stevens Square, the Wedge, Whittier, Seward, Powderhorn and much of Northeast already are.
Now I'm confused. If the question is "should we build some public housing in NIEBNA", is there anyone who disagrees?

But also, where are we seeing tower high-rises with "high-income households who are actively looking to pay a premium for excluding minorities" if it's not in these neighborhoods?

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby David Greene » September 15th, 2015, 11:22 am

beige_box wrote:I'm not super convinced that concentration of poverty (especially the "racially concentrated" poverty idea) is a real problem if the government actually commits to providing services to those areas
THANK YOU

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby David Greene » September 15th, 2015, 11:24 am

amiller92 wrote:In practical terms, it's not possible because there is no pool of money to build the public housing you want
[Not specifically directed at amiller92]

Just want to note here that this is an often-believed untruth. We have plenty of money to do whatever we want. Politically, we just choose not to.

Now, I live in the real world and accept things aren't going to be perfect, but it's important that we recognize the difference between accidents of nature and actual choices we make.


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