The Hub Minneapolis - 600 Washington Ave SE (284' - 26 Stories)

Northeast, Near North, Camden, Old St. Anthony, University and surrounding neighborhoods
twinkess
Rice Park
Posts: 478
Joined: November 26th, 2012, 10:46 am

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby twinkess » August 23rd, 2016, 6:58 am

Sorry, yes per square foot.

Qhaberl
Foshay Tower
Posts: 812
Joined: February 25th, 2016, 9:51 am

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby Qhaberl » August 23rd, 2016, 7:14 am

That is definitely a problem with new construction. Jane Jacobs mentions it in, The death and life of the great American city. That is one of the reasons why she says it is important to maintain old building stock as well as new. Most smaller businesses or commercial establishments can't afford the high overhead price of being located in the new building. Not that I'm against this building.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
FISHMANPET
IDS Center
Posts: 4602
Joined: June 6th, 2012, 2:19 pm
Location: Corcoran

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby FISHMANPET » August 23rd, 2016, 8:37 am

The missing link in that chain is that you have to build new before it can become old.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4760
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby David Greene » August 23rd, 2016, 3:21 pm

Or, you know, preserve what you have.

User avatar
FISHMANPET
IDS Center
Posts: 4602
Joined: June 6th, 2012, 2:19 pm
Location: Corcoran

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby FISHMANPET » August 23rd, 2016, 3:31 pm

You mean those things that were once new?

How did we get those?

:thinking face emoji:

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4760
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby David Greene » August 23rd, 2016, 3:37 pm

So your logic is:

I need affordable space
Here's an old building
Tear it down and build something new so it will become old and affordable in the future!

This project is good. Your logic applied generally to every situation is not.

User avatar
FISHMANPET
IDS Center
Posts: 4602
Joined: June 6th, 2012, 2:19 pm
Location: Corcoran

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby FISHMANPET » August 23rd, 2016, 3:43 pm

I'm commenting on the citing of Jane Jacobs to support keeping old buildings around. I think it's disingenuous to quote Jacobs in a vacuum and not really understand the context of what she was saying.

First, she was up against urban renewal, where policy was tear everything down. That removes all old structures and replaces them usually with parking lots.

Second, Jacobs was kind of actually a huge NIMBY, she just got lucky in that she was a NIMBY when the thing to fight against was neighborhood clearance for freeways. Later in life when she moved to Canada the thing to fight was new housing, so that's what she fought then, after she'd written Life and Death. Also the neighborhood she lived in when she right Life and Death is pretty gentrified now, partly because people like here fought redevelopment.

My point is that this is a constant cycle. Old buildings being more affordable requires new buildings to be built as well.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4760
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby David Greene » August 23rd, 2016, 3:55 pm

Qhaberl wrote:she says it is important to maintain old building stock as well as new
Emphasis mine.

Whether that's an accurate summary of Jacobs' views is beside the point. Qhaberl clearly stated he supports building new as well as preserving old and you jumped all over him apparently because you thought he was being a NIMBY.

User avatar
FISHMANPET
IDS Center
Posts: 4602
Joined: June 6th, 2012, 2:19 pm
Location: Corcoran

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby FISHMANPET » August 23rd, 2016, 3:59 pm

You're right, I missed the part where he said "as well as new" but your response continued the charade so whatever.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4760
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby David Greene » August 23rd, 2016, 4:09 pm

David Greene wrote:This project is good. Your logic applied generally to every situation is not.
My original response was an expression that some old buildings are indeed good to preserve whereas your original response seemed to imply that building new is the only way to get affordability. Given what I think is your lean toward development over preservation, that implication rang true to me.

You sometimes have a habit of assuming the "worst" in people. I find your posts informative and useful but the snark and negativity sometimes is a bit much.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1763
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby amiller92 » August 24th, 2016, 9:56 am

Old buildings are cheap because they are old buildings that aren't valued. Can they stay that way once they are "preserved" via government process? Seems unlikely to me.

Or are we not talking about historical protection but rather just saying no to anything new that would replace them? If so, that doesn't sound at all rife for abuse.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2316
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby EOst » August 24th, 2016, 10:42 am

amiller92 wrote:Old buildings are cheap because they are old buildings that aren't valued. Can they stay that way once they are "preserved" via government process? Seems unlikely to me.
This is straight-up nonsense. Two of the largest historic districts in Minneapolis--Stevens Square and Washburn-Fair Oaks--have some of the highest concentrations of affordable housing in the city. Both have been designated for decades.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2702
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby RailBaronYarr » August 24th, 2016, 11:53 am

I'm legitimately asking since I don't know - is the designated, affordable housing you reference Affordable (i.e. subsidized in some way, with a mandate to remain so) or affordable just because it's older but also happens to be protected (or, even if the residents are subsidized by vouchers)? If the former, I'd say that's obviously a way to combine a social goal of preservation (and its costs) with the goal of affordability (and its costs) - a good thing I'd say.

If it's the latter, I don't think we can really assign much connection between the designation/preservation and affordability - at some point the building will require significant upkeep and the private owner won't be able to maintain rents in the affordability range (and/or will choose to reject vouchers). That's assuming the area is desirable enough to justify higher rents post-renovation.

I'd certainly be interested in a non-anecdotal study of both commercial and residential properties across the country in desirable neighborhoods or districts or whatever and comparing price to age. This one found that after ~50 years, homes that once got cheaper through natural market filtering started to get more expensive again (though the reasons behind this are many and not discussed in the paper!).

Anyway. In this particular case, it's really impossible to know what the future of the existing building would be sans redevelopment. Village Wok/building owners clearly like money and don't particularly care for their tenants, else they wouldn't be selling out to a developer without demanding current tenants be given a deal to return in the new place. They may have had a complicated cost/benefit threshold to continue being property managers AND restaurant managers, and decided in the near future that the higher rents this area clearly commands would have been worth it. Or! Maybe not, maybe the building's footprint/layout/amenities could never command more than $30/sqft and we'd all be eating Lettuce Subs until we die. But we do have anecdotal evidence of chains taking over space in old streetcar buildings in Dinkytown and other places in this city. Maybe someone with inside knowledge on commercial real estate can comment a bit more. But even with that knowledge, this is a pretty clear-cut case of the benefits outweighing the costs - and I think almost everyone on here agrees and so maybe we can argue about Saint Jane and her stone tablets another time.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1763
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby amiller92 » August 24th, 2016, 12:14 pm

Hypothesis: if all historically protected areas are also immediately adjacent to one or more freeway trenches, they can be bastions of affordability.

Although my medium to longer term guess that that Stevens Square will soon be testing that hypothesis.

acs
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1378
Joined: March 26th, 2014, 8:41 pm

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby acs » August 24th, 2016, 12:31 pm

Why are we straying into affordable housing in this thread? There's a big difference between what makes affordability for housing and affordability for commercial tenants. We have housing vouchers, tax breaks and other subsidies for housing but not businesses or commercial property owners, which is what we're all concerned about here.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4760
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby David Greene » August 24th, 2016, 8:43 pm

amiller92 wrote:Or are we not talking about historical protection but rather just saying no to anything new that would replace them? If so, that doesn't sound at all rife for abuse.
Why is it always extremes with this group?

Is it not possible that, given the right project, it is ok to want to tear down an old building while at the same time generally leaning toward preserving affordability over some mediocre proposal of questionable societal benefit, given that people will be kicked out of their businesses/homes?

In other words, context matters.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1763
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby amiller92 » August 25th, 2016, 8:54 am

Of course context matters, but generally speaking, preservation and affordability run counter to each other and it's weird that you're asserting the opposite.

It's also weird to imply in the abstract that building something new is a "mediocre proposal of questionable societal benefit."

Anyway, if what you're saying is that you're for preservation when the proposed development doesn't increase the supply of housing or retail space, then okay, that might help retain affordability. But when it does, you aren't going to keep the demand at bay and thus prices down by not increasing supply.

DanB
Metrodome
Posts: 85
Joined: January 28th, 2016, 10:10 pm
Location: Prospect Park

Re: Stadium Village 26-Story Tower (Harbor Bay Real Estate)

Postby DanB » September 28th, 2016, 1:58 pm

Opinion piece in the Minnesota Daily.

http://www.mndaily.com/article/2016/09/high-rise-hell

Squidward
Metrodome
Posts: 56
Joined: August 2nd, 2015, 9:19 pm

Re: Stadium Village Tower - 600 Washington Ave SE (284' - 26 Stories)

Postby Squidward » October 4th, 2016, 7:23 am

Looks like theres some work going on by the sidewalk - probably utilities or such. The building is completely empty.

grant1simons2
IDS Center
Posts: 4296
Joined: February 8th, 2014, 11:33 pm
Location: Marcy-Holmes

Re: Stadium Village Tower - 600 Washington Ave SE (284' - 26 Stories)

Postby grant1simons2 » October 15th, 2016, 11:16 am

I think this is going to start this week. Bulldozer on site along with some utilities being re-routed this week.


Return to “Minneapolis - North, Northeast, and Southeast / University of Minnesota”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests