Rafter - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Northeast, Near North, Camden, Old St. Anthony, University and surrounding neighborhoods
J2arkitekt
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Re: Mortenson / USBank site - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby J2arkitekt » December 13th, 2018, 1:34 pm

mnmike wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 11:37 am
Actually doesn't look as bad as I thought it would....but the blank spot where the elevators are will be terrible.
The blank spot where the elevators are is already enclosed on the building. It is the section of charcoal precast with the row of windows down the middle, to the right of the construction elevators.

So does it not look so bad or does it look terrible?

mnmike
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Re: Mortenson / USBank site - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby mnmike » December 13th, 2018, 1:38 pm

J2arkitekt wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 1:34 pm
mnmike wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 11:37 am
Actually doesn't look as bad as I thought it would....but the blank spot where the elevators are will be terrible.
The blank spot where the elevators are is already enclosed on the building. It is the section of charcoal precast with the row of windows down the middle, to the right of the construction elevators.

So does it not look so bad or does it look terrible?
What is the point of this post? The blank spot all the way up the side of the building with the row of windows next to it is where the elevator shaft is...at least that is what I have assumed all along, and that the row of windows is where the elevator lobbies are. Apologies if I was mistaken. The building as a whole looks better than I thought it would, but I think the fact that they are leaving that blank spot of precast all the way up the side of the building either side of the elevator lobbies will look terrible. Other angles, not bad. Are you satisfied with this explanation, or must I go into further detail? Weird.

J2arkitekt
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Re: Mortenson / USBank site - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby J2arkitekt » December 13th, 2018, 2:02 pm

mnmike wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 1:38 pm
J2arkitekt wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 1:34 pm
mnmike wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 11:37 am
Actually doesn't look as bad as I thought it would....but the blank spot where the elevators are will be terrible.
The blank spot where the elevators are is already enclosed on the building. It is the section of charcoal precast with the row of windows down the middle, to the right of the construction elevators.

So does it not look so bad or does it look terrible?
What is the point of this post? The blank spot all the way up the side of the building with the row of windows next to it is where the elevator shaft is...at least that is what I have assumed all along, and that the row of windows is where the elevator lobbies are. Apologies if I was mistaken. The building as a whole looks better than I thought it would, but I think the fact that they are leaving that blank spot of precast all the way up the side of the building either side of the elevator lobbies will look terrible. Other angles, not bad. Are you satisfied with this explanation, or must I go into further detail? Weird.
Yeah, this is a better explanation. You did say "Doesn't look as bad as I thought it would" - a present tense statement, and then followed it up with "the blank spot where the elevators are will be terrible" - a future tense statement that made it sound like you didn't understand that the thing you think will be terrible is already a finished part of the building you just said doesn't looks so bad. Can you see how that might make a person think you're the one that is confused?

And since you've offered, sure, I'd like some further detail about your issue with a blank wall at the elevator. What would you put on the side of an elevator shaft to "dress it up"?

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Re: Mortenson / USBank site - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby mnmike » December 13th, 2018, 4:05 pm

I guess the simplest solution would be to make it appear as if there were windows there, as so many other buildings do. Most buildings don't make you say, "oh, there is where the elevator shafts are", even if they share an exterior wall. You seem very defensive here...I apologize if you had something to do with this design and take pride in it....but I don't think I am the only one here who sees a pretty bland boxy building in the renderings. The window patterns make it look a little better in real life than I thought, that is all. But I am glad we can go over this 3 times:)

PS, maybe they did it to reference their neighbor by the river...that is a tower with a giant blank wall, probably where the elevator shafts are too. Mostly kidding, but I just realized these buildings have that in common.

J2arkitekt
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Re: Mortenson / USBank site - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby J2arkitekt » December 13th, 2018, 7:22 pm

mnmike wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 4:05 pm
I guess the simplest solution would be to make it appear as if there were windows there, as so many other buildings do. Most buildings don't make you say, "oh, there is where the elevator shafts are", even if they share an exterior wall. You seem very defensive here...I apologize if you had something to do with this design and take pride in it....but I don't think I am the only one here who sees a pretty bland boxy building in the renderings. The window patterns make it look a little better in real life than I thought, that is all. But I am glad we can go over this 3 times:)

PS, maybe they did it to reference their neighbor by the river...that is a tower with a giant blank wall, probably where the elevator shafts are too. Mostly kidding, but I just realized these buildings have that in common.
Text doesn’t convey tone very well. I’m not defensive. Only trying to get some depth to the critique.

I have no issue with criticism of any architecture if it has depth. Saying something is terrible is not constructive or creating much space for a conversation about design, development, or planning. Every building has some things that aren’t as good as they could be. And it is worth discussing, but it takes more than empty judgement.

As far as this particular building, the elevator was surrounded by shear walls (a common occurrence) and installing spandrel glass windows would have been difficult to waterproof. The elevator core could have been moved inward on the building (this would be the solution I’d opt for if it was an option) but that probably negatively effects parking and interior circulation. So the solution as it is, while not ideal, probably was the only option given all the circumstances. This is often the case for buildings, particularly those with tight development budgets (as opposed to civic or institutional buildings that can, if absolutely needed, raise more money or increase budgets).

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jtoemke
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Re: Mortenson / USBank site - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby jtoemke » December 14th, 2018, 7:47 am

J2arkitekt wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 7:22 pm
mnmike wrote:
December 13th, 2018, 4:05 pm
The elevator core could have been moved inward on the building (this would be the solution I’d opt for if it was an option) but that probably negatively effects parking and interior circulation.
Stair cores and elevators fitting into the parking garage below is the biggest headache - I second this rationale

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Re: Mortenson / USBank site - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby mnmike » December 15th, 2018, 1:27 am

Textured precast with depressions (instead of actual glass) that matched the window patterns would also maybe be an option?

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Re: Mortenson / USBank site - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby mnmike » December 15th, 2018, 1:31 am

PS. J2...maybe you don’t intend it, but you’re coming off awfully condescending and rude. This is usually a pretty friendly place for commentary where one isn’t berated for not sounding like an architect or engineer. Maybe lighten up a little, I’m not as clueless as you seem to think...I have enough understanding of architecture and construction to know and call out when the developer went the cheap/unattractive route. I didn’t say it was the architects fault, I’m sure it’s likely the budget...but that doesn’t change my opinion, or the fact that it could probably look better, even with the current budget. Lighten up. Sheesh. We aren’t critiquing the Guggenheim in an advanced architecture course here, it’s an apartment building, and a forum full of people from all backgrounds that share a common interest.

J2arkitekt
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Re: Mortenson / USBank site - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby J2arkitekt » December 15th, 2018, 6:16 am

mnmike wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 1:31 am
PS. J2...maybe you don’t intend it, but you’re coming off awfully condescending and rude. This is usually a pretty friendly place for commentary where one isn’t berated for not sounding like an architect or engineer. Maybe lighten up a little, I’m not as clueless as you seem to think...I have enough understanding of architecture and construction to know and call out when the developer went the cheap/unattractive route. I didn’t say it was the architects fault, I’m sure it’s likely the budget...but that doesn’t change my opinion, or the fact that it could probably look better, even with the current budget. Lighten up. Sheesh. We aren’t critiquing the Guggenheim in an advanced architecture course here, it’s an apartment building, and a forum full of people from all backgrounds that share a common interest.
Your responses to me haven’t exactly been friendly. I’m not asking for dissertations. Only looking for a little more depth than “terrible”. I’m not assuming you don’t know anything. I’m assuming that you have the ability to push a little further and make this a better conversation. I’m sorry if my tone via written word seems condescending. Definitely not my intention.

When it’s all said and done, no one will be walking down 4th street and notice the blank wall sections dozens of feet above their heads. You really experience the first 10-15 feet in height of a building. And that part isn’t close to done really. Time will tell.

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Homewood2009
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Re: Mortenson / USBank site - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby Homewood2009 » December 15th, 2018, 11:28 am

This building shows up really well from Plymouth avenue in N Mpls, once you cross over the freeway bridge. NE is developing it's own skyline, can't wait for Alia to get finished. As far as this building goes, I'll wait to see how it interacts with the sidewalk. We can probably all agree that it is better than what was there.

grant1simons2
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Re: Rafter - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby grant1simons2 » December 17th, 2018, 3:49 pm

Idk. I've been watching this grow above the tree line from my bedroom window for months now. Without the windows, it looked like a voided oreo that could never account to much. With details being added, especially windows, the color begins to achieve some sort of balance.

Either way, looks pretty d o p e with a Canon filter.

Qhaberl
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Re: Rafter - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby Qhaberl » February 20th, 2019, 5:42 pm

bapster2006 wrote:The city packet for your reading pleasure:

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 201737.pdf

I’m very confused. This seems to be the last time 333 Hennepin went before the planning commission, why don’t the newest renderings, or the building, look aesthetically like the building in the pictures


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J2arkitekt
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Re: Rafter - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby J2arkitekt » February 20th, 2019, 7:17 pm

Qhaberl wrote:
February 20th, 2019, 5:42 pm
bapster2006 wrote:The city packet for your reading pleasure:

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 201737.pdf

I’m very confused. This seems to be the last time 333 Hennepin went before the planning commission, why don’t the newest renderings, or the building, look aesthetically like the building in the pictures


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Changes can be made to projects after city planning review, so long as those changes are deemed minor by the department. So long as a project remains fundamentally the same, the planners do not require resubmission. This can include some major changes that are not considered requirements for zoning or code approval, but it is up to the department to ultimate decide. So, while this was the planning department review submission, there were undoubtedly other conversations had with planning afterward. This is fairly typical for large projects.

Qhaberl
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Re: Rafter - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby Qhaberl » February 20th, 2019, 8:47 pm

J2arkitekt wrote:
Qhaberl wrote:
February 20th, 2019, 5:42 pm
bapster2006 wrote:The city packet for your reading pleasure:

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 201737.pdf

I’m very confused. This seems to be the last time 333 Hennepin went before the planning commission, why don’t the newest renderings, or the building, look aesthetically like the building in the pictures


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Changes can be made to projects after city planning review, so long as those changes are deemed minor by the department. So long as a project remains fundamentally the same, the planners do not require resubmission. This can include some major changes that are not considered requirements for zoning or code approval, but it is up to the department to ultimate decide. So, while this was the planning department review submission, there were undoubtedly other conversations had with planning afterward. This is fairly typical for large projects.

Thanks for the info,

I find this very disappointing. I think the aesthetic make up of the building is very important. I do not feel a developer should be able to makes aesthetic changes, such as color, without a public hearing. In my opinion, the color of the façade of the building can determine how well the building fits in to the surrounding neighborhood. I also think it is important that we have aesthetically different buildings. Buildings that have colors that interrupt other patterns. For example, I thought that the small sliver of yellow in this building would have looked really good.


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J2arkitekt
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Re: Rafter - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby J2arkitekt » February 20th, 2019, 9:17 pm

Qhaberl wrote:
February 20th, 2019, 8:47 pm

Thanks for the info,

I find this very disappointing. I think the aesthetic make up of the building is very important. I do not feel a developer should be able to makes aesthetic changes, such as color, without a public hearing. In my opinion, the color of the façade of the building can determine how well the building fits in to the surrounding neighborhood. I also think it is important that we have aesthetically different buildings. Buildings that have colors that interrupt other patterns. For example, I thought that the small sliver of yellow in this building would have looked really good.


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It’s understandable to be disappointed when projects change, but the city wouldn’t ever get into the business of dictating design to that degree.

Qhaberl
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Re: Rafter - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby Qhaberl » February 20th, 2019, 10:28 pm

J2arkitekt wrote:
Qhaberl wrote:
February 20th, 2019, 8:47 pm

Thanks for the info,

I find this very disappointing. I think the aesthetic make up of the building is very important. I do not feel a developer should be able to makes aesthetic changes, such as color, without a public hearing. In my opinion, the color of the façade of the building can determine how well the building fits in to the surrounding neighborhood. I also think it is important that we have aesthetically different buildings. Buildings that have colors that interrupt other patterns. For example, I thought that the small sliver of yellow in this building would have looked really good.


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It’s understandable to be disappointed when projects change, but the city wouldn’t ever get into the business of dictating design to that degree.
I don’t necessarily think the city should dictate design. I just feel that if a developer submits something to the planning commission and it is approved; that’s what should be built.


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grant1simons2
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Re: Rafter - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby grant1simons2 » February 21st, 2019, 5:10 pm

The first floor finishes are full brick with large glass storefront glass. I'm... really okay with the materials used here. This isn't the ugliest building in the city..

bapster2006
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Re: Rafter - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby bapster2006 » April 9th, 2019, 5:27 pm

The last few feet of crane.

ImageRafter tower crane lowering Minneapolis 4-9-19 by Matt Bappe, on Flickr

TroyGBiv
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Re: Rafter - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby TroyGBiv » April 9th, 2019, 6:42 pm

I’m really loving the “graphic” quality of this building.

Qhaberl
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Re: Rafter - 333 Hennepin Ave E (290' - 26 stories)

Postby Qhaberl » April 10th, 2019, 4:28 am

I’m not as thrilled with the graphic quality of the building. It still bothers me that it does not look like the building that was approved by the planning commission.


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