White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Northeast, Near North, Camden, Old St. Anthony, University and surrounding neighborhoods
talindsay
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby talindsay » July 28th, 2016, 12:39 pm

sdho wrote:I do not think the antiquated, tiny examples you provide are feasible -- or even particularly good for pedestrians.
I'll grant tiny, but antiquated? Maybe this is a better example:
Image

Or this, which is in the first floor of a three-story building:
Image

Or this, which is in a parking garage underneath a public park:
Image

Or this one, which includes a car wash:
Image

amiller92
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby amiller92 » July 28th, 2016, 1:12 pm

sdho wrote:I'd still like to see ways that a modern gas station could exist with high-quality, mixed-use developments. The best ideas I can think of is something in a well-ventilated underground garage, or an open covered area like the loading docks of 222 Hennepin. I do not think the antiquated, tiny examples you provide are feasible -- or even particularly good for pedestrians.
Via Google, an example from Japan:
Image

That's apparently the offices of Esquire Japan above the gas station.

Here's link to another image of an office building over a gas station in Japan: http://www.zombiezodiac.com/rob/ped/mix ... office.JPG

It can be done, but it's not hard to see why people don't see much incentive to do it at our levels of land value and density.

MNdible
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby MNdible » July 28th, 2016, 1:29 pm

I'd have to imagine that the fire protection issues for a set-up like that are pretty onerous, no?

mattaudio
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby mattaudio » July 28th, 2016, 2:23 pm

I definitely like the idea of the little island for gas pumps, with a slip lane and the sidewalk between the pump area and the storefront. Other things like a car wash or long-term parking could be in an underground facility, right?

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sdho
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby sdho » July 28th, 2016, 3:08 pm

Alright, I like these better! I'm not sure it makes a difference for this particular project, since I'd assume the much cheaper part of the project is less likely to drive the more expensive part. That is, an apartment developer plans to have retail space and makes it available for Holiday. Seems much harder for Holiday or similar to solicit an apartment or office developer to build above them.

Come to think of it, I've seen a number of compact gas stations in Norway. This one is nicely tucked into the basement of an office building in Oslo:

Image

However, customer-wise, I think people like how Holiday and Kwik Trip both tend to be generously proportioned, clean, bright, and new. It is really hard to provide that to customers in a covered fashion.

talindsay
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby talindsay » July 28th, 2016, 3:10 pm

Given our weather though, people might like a design that gets them inside. Imagine how much warmer that Oslo station you posted, or the indoor/underground Paris stations I posted, would be on a January day. Half our year is cold, miserable and gross outside. Imagine standing essentially in the equivalent of your car dealer's garage when you fill your tank.

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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby sdho » July 29th, 2016, 9:28 am

Excellent points, yeah. I guess that trade-off exists with structured parking in general. Except for moderate-temperature days in spring or fall, I'll always choose covered/structured parking over surface parking -- 25% because I like it better in principle, and 75% because I don't want my car to get boiling hot, or snowed on. Then again, I know a lot of people who dislike parking ramps because they feel unsafe/creepy/difficult to maneuver.

Then again, pretty much anybody driving in a central area of Minneapolis -- resident or visitor -- is probably well-acquainted with ramps. Could be a cool sell to have clean, climate-controlled (climate-mitigated?) filling area.

uncle phil
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby uncle phil » July 30th, 2016, 10:50 pm

I imagine there are specific reasons why there are no underground/indoor gas stations around, mostly likely pertaining to gas storage and ventilation requirements...

twincitizen
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby twincitizen » August 1st, 2016, 1:42 pm

Planning Commission, 4:30pm today.

Anyone able to make it?

I can't make it, but I can offer this concise soundbite for anyone that wants to use it: “The city loses nothing by rejecting this proposal” (i.e. White Castle and Holiday are already there, they will continue to be there)

Also, a note about process: Staff is recommending approval and the Planning Commission is fairly likely to approve as well, given that staff finds that it meets current codes.

Planning Commission approval would be final. No further approval by the City Council is necessary. Once approved by the Planning Commission tonight, the only way to stop this would be to file an appeal. Typically that would be done by a group of nearby residents, but could certainly come from a broader group.

grant1simons2
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby grant1simons2 » August 1st, 2016, 1:48 pm

First ever Streets appeal? Thatd be kind of neat. I'm planning on going anyways.

twincitizen
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby twincitizen » August 2nd, 2016, 6:42 am

So this passed 3-1 (Chair Brown didn't vote), with just 5 of the 10 members present. Again, this is the final approval unless appealed.

Be that as it may that this proposal meets current codes and such, that is deeply concerning from a process standpoint. Less than half of the planning commission voted on a proposal for which they have final approval.

Anyone have a copy of their bylaws? Is 5 members even quorum?

LakeCharles
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby LakeCharles » August 2nd, 2016, 7:30 am

Here is the White Castle being built in Columbus:
http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/new ... hs.html#g2

Stolen from Keith Morris on the article on streets.mn

jebr
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby jebr » August 2nd, 2016, 9:14 am

5 members is a quorum for the planning commission.

4.4 here: http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 135838.pdf

mattaudio
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby mattaudio » August 2nd, 2016, 10:13 am

Speaking of, why doesn't President Brown ever vote?

It's as if he's a facilitator/parlimentarian, not an actual commissioner. And if that's the case, then a quorum was not really present. Grasping at straws here. Just seems ridiculous that three members of a ten member board, with no vacancies, can make such a decision.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby FISHMANPET » August 2nd, 2016, 10:14 am

The president only votes when there are ties. It happened a few cycles ago when the Lander 38th st project was before the commission, he had to break a couple 3-3 votes.

mattaudio
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby mattaudio » August 2nd, 2016, 10:18 am

Yet I have found nothing requiring that in their bylaws. I feel like it is traditional that a president does not introduce or second motions before a voting body, but it is definitely not tradition that the president abstains from voting.

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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby MNdible » August 2nd, 2016, 10:31 am

This is standard practice on most boards I've participated on.

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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby Silophant » August 2nd, 2016, 10:44 am

What's the fee/process for filing an appeal?

Archiapolis
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby Archiapolis » August 2nd, 2016, 11:14 am

Silophant wrote:So, what's going on with the expansion of the Ped Overlay zoning that was talked about in the wake of the Roat Osha proposal? I haven't heard much about it in a while, and, meanwhile, auto-oriented crap keeps getting proposed and approved, for lack of grounds to deny, in our booming walkable districts.
Yeah, what about new Ped Overlays? Or, are we going to (continue to) run around and try to put out fires AFTER they are submitted with existing guidelines in place and have ZERO leverage and open the city to litigation by the owners?

Is it moratorium time yet?

grant1simons2
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Re: White Castle and Holiday at Central & Hennepin

Postby grant1simons2 » August 2nd, 2016, 11:16 am

Silophant wrote:What's the fee/process for filing an appeal?
They really don't make it easy to find on the cities website. Still searching.

Edit: Think I got it,

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 255528.pdf


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