CPM 16-Story Apartment Proposal - 1315-19 4th St SE (Mesa/Camdi/Chatime site)

[nBode]

By my rough count, Stadium Village is close to 1:1 local/non, while Dinkytown is somewhere between 2:1 and 3:1 local/non, but EOst is right about more local businesses in Dinkytown being tucked away. But I would still say Stadium Village has more local places than non-local, even without Big Ten, Espresso Expose,Village Wok, etc.

[Nick]

The data are:

https://streets.mn/2015/05/08/2015-dinky ... udy-finds/

[talindsay]

Any similar data for Stadium Village? The total count is so much smaller that the percentages will be much more affected by an individual business opening or closing, but the rough idea that a third are big national chains is a useful point for comparison.

[EOst]

[grant1simons2]

Ugh great. Maybe I'll get one sentence in about the design before I'm cut off by them .

[min-chi-cbus]

Is there merit to their desire to keep Dinkytown "dinky"? I didn't go to the U and haven't spent much time there, but I know it's a popular little niche in Northeast. It seems like every commercial district in NE has historic status or is trying to get it -- which I understand -- but why are we trying to limit high-density redevelopment in the only areas where it truly makes sense in this part of town? If people are reasonable and they claim they're in favor of growth and redevelopment, but just not here (or St. Anthony), then where?

[amiller92]

Totally unfair snark alert: Dinkytown is not in northeast.

To snark in a different direction: I happen to think much of the motivation for these things is that people (most likely mistakenly) think that Dinkytown is named for being small. I've never seen anything claiming to have a definitive answer on the name's origin, but my understanding is that it was most likely named for the streetcars that used to serve the area - called Dinkys. So, if we're trying to preserve the dinky namesake, it's already gone.

That said, the one-story, streetcar era buildings like that housing Mesa do go back a ways and represent how the city grew around the street cars. Of course, the same factors make those corridors a good place for greater development.

[EOst]

Part of Dinkytown's significance is also tied to the Red Barn riot/occupation in 1970, one of the first big historic preservation protests in the city. The Red Barn site is 1307-11 4th, i.e. right next door to the proposed development. So there's a long history for arguing that this place is uniquely significant.

[amiller92]

Part of Dinkytown's significance is also tied to the Red Barn riot/occupation in 1970

Meh. First of all, you have to keep a whole neighborhood because a riot happened there? Second, is this riot even particularly memorable?

one of the first big historic preservation protests in the city.

Was it even about preservation? Or was it student anti-corporatism?

[grant1simons2]

Anti-Corporation students.

[EOst]

Meh. First of all, you have to keep a whole neighborhood because a riot happened there? Second, is this riot even particularly memorable?

They occupied the building for over a month and were evicted by force (receiving national news coverage). There was a well-received documentary about the event a couple years ago.

Was it even about preservation? Or was it student anti-corporatism?

Both? I don't think they can be disentangled.

I mean, we have to be careful retrojecting these terms back to 1970. The construction of the Mesa/Camdi building was almost exactly as far removed from the protests (49 years, built 1921) as we are from the protests (46 years).

[mister.shoes]

16 to 17 stories completed by spring, you guys. If only!

[amiller92]

There was a well-received documentary about the event a couple years ago.

After a whole lot of change in Dinkytown and even more hand-wringing, people started bringing up a 1970s student protest as a reason to stop further change. Then someone made a documentary about it in 2015. That may have been screened exactly once at a local film festival. Hm.

Both? I don't think they can be disentangled.

I guess we'll have to watch the movie. Somehow.

For what it's worth, the trailer and blurb sure sound like it was more about the corporate nature of Red Barn than about saving the structures: http://almilgrom.com/bio/

I mean, we have to be careful retrojecting these terms back to 1970. The construction of the Mesa/Camdi building was almost exactly as far removed from the protests (49 years, built 1921) as we are from the protests (46 years).

Yeah, and context put them way closer to the terrible urban renewal era, and, of course a whole lot of other things to protest.

[EOst]

Framed another way, it's being brought up during a period of great change to remind people of the value of what's being lost.

To be honest, I don't know what value there is in having this conversation again. Whether you think Dinkytown should be a historic district or not, it is one. It's already way less than what preservationists asked for, but that was accepted--with the support of the entire council, including Jacob Frey--because it would preserve the (almost ludicrously curtailed) core, including the Mesa/Camdi building which was the impetus behind the whole fight. That process should mean something! Why should anyone trust any city decision like that one, if it has to be relitigated every time a developer shows up with a pile of money?

[mattaudio]

OK, so keep the Mesa facade. What else is historic?

[grant1simons2]

This was on the event page. Maybe a different design tonight? I'm not too thrilled about this version, but cleaning up will help.

[EOst]

OK, so keep the Mesa facade. What else is historic?

Virtually no one accepts a facade bolted onto a tower as a valid preservation strategy. As I've said before, it's just fetishism at that point.

I'm at the meeting now. Audience skews a little older.

[EOst]

[img]https://imgur.com/a/6tvXU

Same project as posted above. Huge.

[EOst]

Left early, but I don't think I missed much. Audience reaction was universally negative, likewise the MH board. That's probably to be expected at this stage, especially for Marcy-Holmes (decent mix of old and young residents btw). But the CPM guy didn't come off well at all, acknowledging that they'd basically ignored previous feedback, generally dismissing even the constructive criticism, and making poorly-thought-out jokes (e.g. when asked about shadowing, he started to joke that "we just want to do to the Chateau and Marshall what the Chateau does to the rest of the neighborhood"--not well received in the room).

5" setback on the Camdi/Mesa building (keep most of the facade, demolish the rest), additional setback (about a car's length) from the garage entrance on 4th St to the sidewalk line. Big curb cut for 4th across the bike lane. Slightly taller than the Chateau overall. ~20 stalls in the building would be public parking, with a low per-unit ratio. Rents between $2 and 2.40 (I think) per square foot. Significantly less commercial space than the existing buildings. The University as well sounds strongly opposed. And the Dinkytown Business Association has a study suggesting that the building would harm the commercial district's marketability.

Of course, this board has no legal power. But I can't imagine the HPC will greenlight this in its present form either. Comes down to whether Frey supports it, I guess.

[grant1simons2]

But the CPM guy didn't come off well at all

Are you the one that tried pointing out to him that recent grads probably can't afford this, and he told you that "people in your field might not"?

Because if so, I can see why you didn't like him. Dan is kind of a jerk in that way, he's defensive about his pricing and the way that they build housing. But the crowd tonight was attacking all the wrong things. The meeting started off with a guy constantly interrupting asking, "Who cares?". And then it went into a number of points from the board about how they believe that there won't be any demand for this, and it's too big. The people who spoke didn't approve of it, the people I spoke to afterward want to see it evolve a bit more. There were a lot of people who thought this building is nearly completed design wise, when it's really at maybe 10% if that.

Big curb cut for 4th across the bike lane.

You forgot to mention that they probably won't be using that entrance/exit any more.

5"

5 feet actually