Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis (cancelled)

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David Greene
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby David Greene » June 5th, 2015, 3:55 pm

Archiapolis wrote:Before I get blasted by the "equity" crowd, I'm not lobbying for a move away from "the North side." I would love to see the Farmer's Market moved to become a CENTERPIECE of development on the North side and I could probably think of some sites if I was pushed.
The impound lot would be a perfect location. Right next to the Van White station and some of the land can't be developed anyway due to soil conditions. The city is planning to shrink the impound lot so it's definitely possible. It would be better if the impound lot went away entirely.

anders
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby anders » June 7th, 2015, 6:44 am

Wedgeguy wrote:There is some city or county traffic building next to the FM that they would have to acquire or raise to get the stadium bowl to fit. It is about equal with where the street at the North end of the FM borders.
Every stoplight in Minneapolis is wired into that building, so I imagine they have done a good job of avoiding the need to purchase and demolish it. As an aside, a bowl shape isn't all that ideal for soccer anyway.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby mattaudio » June 7th, 2015, 8:25 am

Are you sure about that? From what I hear, stoplights are either controlled by fiber or they are isolated to the local box. Maybe there's an older communication protocol that I'm unaware of. But if it's all the newer fiber connections to cabinets, it should be an easy move.

Speaking of, hey mdcastle there's stoplights sitting out and an open fence gate! https://goo.gl/maps/sdgJj

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Mdcastle
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Mdcastle » June 7th, 2015, 5:36 pm

There's a variety of ways traffic signals communicate with each other and "Mission Control". Anything from a single mains voltage wire to analog POTS to wireless radio to fiber. I can't comment about what Minneapolis uses or how much of it, newer stuff would use fiber but there's still a lot that's not new. They do use more or less standard communications cabling one way or another, it's not like every traffic signal has a proprietary multi-conductor cable home run to the building that would have to be moved. Moving it would probably be like moving a large business that may have constant links to servers in other locations and equipment that you don't have multiple copies of, complicated but doable. They whole city wouldn't go into red flash, the signals would drift apart from each other but still more or less work by themselves during the switch.

Nice 3Ms in the picture, but for the most part Minneapolis destroys the "good stuff" instead of saving it or reusing it. I've seen a number of 1940s vintage art deco Eagleluxes on the metal scrap pile at Van White.

anders
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby anders » June 7th, 2015, 11:54 pm

mattaudio wrote:Are you sure about that? From what I hear, stoplights are either controlled by fiber or they are isolated to the local box. Maybe there's an older communication protocol that I'm unaware of. But if it's all the newer fiber connections to cabinets, it should be an easy move.

Speaking of, hey mdcastle there's stoplights sitting out and an open fence gate! https://goo.gl/maps/sdgJj
Maybe it's all changed, but I got to visit the building in 2010 and it was the nerve hub of traffic management. There was a huge map on the wall of the city, with each stoplight represented by a small light showing its current status. A "war room," basically. Plenty of other stuff there but I can't remember what. I was told that every stoplight in the city was ultimately connected (copper wire, I believe) to the building.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby acs » June 15th, 2015, 1:08 pm

So this thing is dead then?

http://www.startribune.com/major-league ... 307398531/

Our leadership is such a joke if this falls through.

David Greene
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby David Greene » June 15th, 2015, 1:13 pm

Look, we all talk about how incredibly stupid it is for someone to buy a house when they can only afford it due to the mortgage interest deductions and low interest rates. How is it any different for someone building a stadium? If the stadium is "very, very difficult" to build without tax breaks, then it probably shouldn't be built.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby VacantLuxuries » June 15th, 2015, 1:25 pm

I'd love to see the stadium still happen, but if they let this die because they didn't get tax breaks, it kind of paints an ugly picture of how much faith the owners have in the team's ability to turn a profit.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby holmstar » June 15th, 2015, 2:00 pm

The thing is, even with a lock on property taxes, the owners don't expect to turn a profit on team/stadium operations. They're betting on the value of the team to appreciate. If they don't have a lock on taxes, it leaves a big question mark on financial viability. There are no comparable properties to look at to put a finger on how much a professional soccer stadium should be taxed in downtown. If the city/county decides to raise taxes significantly, then the team would certainly have to make up for it. Would people be willing to pay for that in their ticket price? Hard to say.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Didier » June 15th, 2015, 2:10 pm

It's hard to see a way out of this paper bag with the legislature done for the summer. The McGuire group has been careful to never actually rule out building the stadium without the tax breaks, but there's credibility and pride at stake in doing so. The team started with a very modest ask and then quickly compromised with Jacob Frey. If the mayor won't as much as come to the table, McGuire looks like a bit of a schmuck if he completely gives in.

If it were me, I'd build somewhere else out of spite.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby EOst » June 15th, 2015, 2:23 pm

holmstar wrote:If they don't have a lock on taxes, it leaves a big question mark on financial viability. There are no comparable properties to look at to put a finger on how much a professional soccer stadium should be taxed in downtown. If the city/county decides to raise taxes significantly, then the team would certainly have to make up for it. Would people be willing to pay for that in their ticket price? Hard to say.
Of all the potential arguments for a property tax exemption, I think "the city/county might suddenly dramatically jack up taxes" might be the silliest of all. Every other venture, one with precedent or not, runs this risk. If the financials are really so precarious that even the theoretical potential of the city/county shooting itself in the foot with prohibitive taxes is enough to scuttle the project, it really shouldn't be happening in the first place.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby EOst » June 15th, 2015, 2:24 pm

Didier wrote:McGuire looks like a bit of a schmuck if he completely gives in.
He has plenty of hundred dollar bills to wipe his tears with.

David Greene
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby David Greene » June 15th, 2015, 2:28 pm

Didier wrote:If it were me, I'd build somewhere else out of spite.
What's the soccer culture in the east metro? It's crazy in the west metro. I can't believe what my niece and nephew up in Maple Grove put up with to participate in soccer. Tournaments all over the state, multiple trips around town per day, etc. What's it like in the east metro? Because there's a huge constituency for this stadium in the west metro. Would an east metro stadium do as well? I just don't know.

One thing's for sure, this has to go on a light-rail line.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby holmstar » June 15th, 2015, 2:49 pm

EOst wrote:Of all the potential arguments for a property tax exemption, I think "the city/county might suddenly dramatically jack up taxes" might be the silliest of all. Every other venture, one with precedent or not, runs this risk. If the financials are really so precarious that even the theoretical potential of the city/county shooting itself in the foot with prohibitive taxes is enough to scuttle the project, it really shouldn't be happening in the first place.
I meant, raise taxes significantly as compared to what the property pays currently once the stadium is built. I'm not suggesting that they would just suddenly raise taxes 200% a few years down the road. If the city/county decides that the land is worth quadruple (no idea whether that is likely or not) with a pro soccer stadium compared to what it was worth as a warehouse, then the owners need to come up with $1 million more a year. $1 million a year can't be laughed off as pocket change. That's got to come from somewhere.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Viktor Vaughn » June 15th, 2015, 2:51 pm

holmstar wrote:The thing is, even with a lock on property taxes, the owners don't expect to turn a profit on team/stadium operations. They're betting on the value of the team to appreciate. If they don't have a lock on taxes, it leaves a big question mark on financial viability
I guess I simply don't understand why this has to be a profit-making venture. Here we have a retired billionaire that wants to own an MLS team. Why, exactly? Maybe he really likes soccer. Perhaps he just wants to be a big shot professional team owner. Could be that he wants to be known for something besides financial fraud. Or perhaps, more altrustically, he wants to bring a team to town to enhance the quality of life in a community he appreciates and has benefited from. But why would he care if he can sell the team when he's 90 years old for a profit? If he lost $2M a year he could engage in this money losing venture for 500 years without going broke. Except that downward path wouldn't be neccesary as his billion could passively earn him $40M per year at a modest 4% return. So he could lose so much more than that and continue to amass wealth.

I just don't get it. Even if he loses his entire MLS investment tomorrow, his lifestyle changes not one bit. The lifestyle of any decendents changes not one bit.

I'm not saying this is how the guy should spend his money. That's up to him. I just don't understand why he would grovel to us poor schmucks for special treatment. Shouldn't someone with their needs so well met be reaching for the tip of Malsow's hierarchy, toward's self-actualization? How would the whim of politicians giving tax breaks prevent this man from accomplishing his goals? It's actually kinda sad he'd be held back by the thought of losing a couple million.

Unless of course fleecing the public is just a rush in its own right for the oligarch class.

It just all reminds me of that scene from Citizen Kane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzhb3U2cONs

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby holmstar » June 15th, 2015, 3:01 pm

You could say the same about any business owned by a wealthy person. John Menard is worth over 3 billion. [sarcasm] Maybe he should run menards as a non profit, just to give back to the community [/sarcasm]

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby FISHMANPET » June 15th, 2015, 3:04 pm

Protip: John Menard is an absolute asshole that will go so far as to load his pickup truck with industrial waste and take it home and put it in his garbage, to avoid paying fees. He's perfectly willing to let a nickel get in the way of making a dollar.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Viktor Vaughn » June 15th, 2015, 3:10 pm

Right, but do you think the primary purpose of owning an MLS team is to make money? Why wouldn't he just invest in a hedge fund and save the trouble?

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby holmstar » June 15th, 2015, 3:12 pm

I'm not defending john menard. He was just the first example I thought of. The point is that people don't own businesses to lose money. The minnesota united fc is not a non-profit. To presume that it's just fine for them to spend money with no pay-back is unreasonable. You wouldn't expect any other business to throw money away.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Viktor Vaughn » June 15th, 2015, 3:15 pm

holmstar wrote:[sarcasm] Maybe he should run menards as a non profit, just to give back to the community [/sarcasm]
Is that so crazy? Not that Menards should be non-profit, but I just can't imagine why one wouldn't direct their efforts to philantrophy at that point. Is there no greater cause than just getting richer?


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