Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis (cancelled)

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David Greene
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby David Greene » July 9th, 2015, 10:57 am

How would a Midway stadium affect the ability to enhance the grid in the area?

Wedgeguy
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Wedgeguy » July 9th, 2015, 12:40 pm

David Greene wrote:How would a Midway stadium affect the ability to enhance the grid in the area?
The portion that is to go up for development would have a grid street going thru, much like the West End, to allow cars into the district parking and buy some of the retail at street level. There is 3 blocks in length running east to west. Minimum 4 blocks running north to south. That would make a grid of 12 blocks to use. The soccer stadium will not need a full 6 of those square blocks for the stadium. You are looking at about 2 1/2 blocks east to west with a block and a half for north south width at best. The district parking can take parts of that half blocks and parts of another half blocks. The east and west would be sold and the center two would be parking with the remainder along University to be broke up into 3 blocks where they only need one entrance/exit and the other can be woofners where people would walk between University and the new interior streets, again much like the West End. The stadium will take up much of the 3 blocks with potential plazas on Snelling and possible entertainment on Pascal right next to or as a part of the stadium complex. The streets thru this area would not be true thru ways, as spruce Tree Ave where the current light and entrance is, would ultimately run into the back of Wal-Mart.So it would not connect beyond that for so called short cuts. Shield's Ave would have a connection at Pascal where the furthest Cub entrance is next to Wal-Mart that would run thru the blocks ,but possibly not have an exit onto Snelling to keep just the one traffic light there. But that would be up to the city traffic engineers to decide on how to engineer the traffic flow for the stadium. If they feel more entrances are truly needed. That is how my grid plays out in my head.

It will not overall enhance the flow of the total grid. Only the grid that would be redeveloped for the land in question. Due to both the LRT and the Freeway you will never have a full grid going thru that area and beyond going North to south. The grid is meant to make the area more pedestrian friendly and still allow people in car to shop in the area and use the district parking to walk a few block in any direction to reach their destination.

Snelbian
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Snelbian » July 9th, 2015, 3:29 pm

As a reference for plans that have been discussed by the involved parties, a rough vision of new street placement can be found on page 35 of the UIG TOD study: http://stpaul.gov/DocumentCenter/View/73774. The Spruce Tree extension across Snelling and the creation of a city road where the thru-way currently runs between McDonald's, the bank, Rainbow, and Big Top are both very likely (or were, I suppose MLS plans may change that) given the legal arrangement of MK Midway properties and their desire to keep Rainbow earning them money while getting something done with the less valuable western edge of the shopping center.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Wedgeguy » July 9th, 2015, 5:16 pm

There are still too many mega blocks with that proposal. They just need to start fresh with a leveled piece of property. I can't believe that the old Rainbow store is cranking out large profits. The blue area now are where the stadium will mostly set. May extent a bit north depending in what kind of space they make along the frontage road for an exterior walkway for fans leaving from that side of the stadium.

They need to create newer streets and not follow the weird pathways that now follow into dead ends and T intersection. Due to the LRT, there really is no reason to have any roads out to University other that Pascal where there is a light. Walkways creating different blocks can be used to create space for store fronts, patios for restaurants, and building entrances. You could do a 3 blocks of underground parking like the West end under those 3 developable blocks. All you need to do is to use your imagination and you can find solutions that meet a lot of different requirements. Sometimes thinking outside the box also helps you see thing in a different perspective. There are a lot of options out there. lets just do one that really does the most good in filling this space with walkable streets, prosperous businesses, quality office space, and most of all residence to make it all work. Throw in some green space, trees lining the streets, and a few pocket parks in-between buildings and you have an area that you would want to hang out in. You can make the area feel like its own small town.

Snelbian
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Snelbian » July 10th, 2015, 5:47 am

Thinking outside the box is great when you aren't the one spending money (or losing it). I'd love to see a clearcut approach, but it's simply never going to happen. RK Midway needs to make money, and this project is only ever going to happen over time. Big Top and the bank will be redeveloped long before Rainbow or anything further east, and RK Midway is insistent that those stores need to stay open while the western portion is redeveloped so that they keep making a profit on their shopping center. So the roads will be constructed where they make the most sense for the redevelopment process and legal needs (Big Top/Hollywood Video is a distinct from the rest of the shopping center now).

Demand for space in this neighborhood is not high enough that the entire thing can be razed and rebuilt at once. That would simply result in lots of empty offices, stores, and apartments. It has to be done gradually, and demand has to be built with good design following good design and a slow buildup of amenities. We're talking about nearly 35 acres of land here, not a quarter block in Uptown.

At the end of the day, the result is going to be walkable, it will have green space and prosperous businesses and all the rest. But it simply won't get there by ignoring the realities on the ground. Will it be perfect? No. Will it be a lot better than it is? Absolutely.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Snelbian » July 10th, 2015, 7:04 am

I'm not sure I'd call those "superblocks" either. Google Earth tells me blocks around Lynlake are .12 miles on the long side. Almost nothing in the Midway plan would be that long between intersections (the only exception being that long, skinny southern block, which would presumably now be taken up by a stadium anyway).

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Mikey » July 10th, 2015, 7:49 am

At the very least, I hope they incorporate the lot east of the bus barn lot into the stadium planning. I'd rather see any stadium half way between Snelling and Pascal rather than pushed to the far corner of the overall site. That would also allow more productive uses along the Snelling frontage.

Related: what would be the odds of building the ramp over 94 at Pascal? Would that be too far away from the redevelopment along University?
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Snelbian
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Snelbian » July 10th, 2015, 8:05 am

Are you talking about building it over 94 or on the other side of 94? The former is cost prohibitive, and the latter wouldn't work for several reasons. First, it's too far from the northern and western portions of the redevelopment for potential tenants to feel comfortable. Second, the western side of Pascal is all single-family homes which would mean significant neighborhood opposition to the ramp, and the eastern side is industrial, which would mean significant district council and city opposition to the ramp because of fears over declining tax base. Third, Pascal is not suitable for carrying large amounts of pedestrian traffic. The sidewalks are VERY narrow as it is, so the entire bridge would have to be redone and the added expense would be prohibitive. Fourth, putting the ramp on the opposite end of the site from initial redevelopment means that anybody using it to park and then visit businesses or attractions early on would have to walk through a VERY pedestrian unfriendly environment in or behind the shopping center. Finally, the city is supposedly rolling out a solution for Ayd Mill by the end of the year, and it's generally assumed that the traffic is likely to be dumped out near Pascal, which means that there's a good deal of uncertainty about the future geometry of roadways there which might hinder a parking ramp in the vicinity.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Mikey » July 10th, 2015, 3:49 pm

I meant OVER the freeway. I realize it's expensive, but how much more? What is the price difference between building a parking ramp on flat ground vs spanning a freeway? If it's only 10-20%, it might be worth it. If it's double the price, not so much. I was spitballing ideas to help stitch the neighborhood together - I'd rather walk along side a parking ramp than over a freeway. The only reason I mentioned Pascal was to avoid the freeway ramps at Snelling

On a different note, is there a preference in soccer for north-south vs east-west fields?
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Snelbian
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Snelbian » July 11th, 2015, 11:04 am

My completely uninformed guess would be that it's closer to double than 10% just because of the amount of weight the piers would be carrying, but I don't know that for sure. I'd love to see a freeway cap there (in fact, it's something that some of us have been pestering UPDC and MNDoT about at Snelling for a couple years), but it would probably require something less massive on top.

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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Wedgeguy » July 11th, 2015, 1:22 pm

Snelbian wrote:My completely uninformed guess would be that it's closer to double than 10% just because of the amount of weight the piers would be carrying, but I don't know that for sure. I'd love to see a freeway cap there (in fact, it's something that some of us have been pestering UPDC and MNDoT about at Snelling for a couple years), but it would probably require something less massive on top.

PigsEye

Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby PigsEye » July 13th, 2015, 10:23 pm

Mikey wrote:I meant OVER the freeway. I realize it's expensive, but how much more? What is the price difference between building a parking ramp on flat ground vs spanning a freeway? If it's only 10-20%, it might be worth it. If it's double the price, not so much. I was spitballing ideas to help stitch the neighborhood together - I'd rather walk along side a parking ramp than over a freeway. The only reason I mentioned Pascal was to avoid the freeway ramps at Snelling

On a different note, is there a preference in soccer for north-south vs east-west fields?

If the MLS plan is considering moving to St. Paul because they don't want to pay 3 Million in sales taxes for construction cost, how likely would they be willing to pay a penny more to build parking when Minneapolis has a location with existing parking? Has any word been announced if St. Paul is even willing to give a tax break to cover that 3 Million in construction sales tax? Is it me or does this start to seem a bit to fantasy to be really a possibility to move the stadium in St. Paul?

Didier
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Didier » July 14th, 2015, 5:49 am

The St. Paul land is already untaxed, so Coleman has indicated that a property tax waiver could be on the table. The city is apparently checking with the state to see whether that would require the legislature to sign off. Involving the state at any level is a big deterrent at this point because of the timeline.

However, the land in St. Paul is essentially free (or might actually be free), so that's a $30 million price difference right off the bat.

seanrichardryan
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby seanrichardryan » July 14th, 2015, 7:33 am

Free? As I understand it, the Met Council has every intention of getting fair market value for their parcel.
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Didier
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Didier » July 14th, 2015, 8:47 am

I might have misinterpreted the reports. The point remains the same, though: the land in St. Paul would likely be cheaper than in Minneapolis, so the terms of the Minneapolis proposal wouldn't necessarily translate.

Here are the relevant passages from the latest Minnpost and Star Tribune stories.
The location he is pushing is the former bus barn site on Snelling Avenue between I-94 and University — walking distance from the Green Line’s Snelling Ave. station. It is currently owned by the Met Council, which has been preparing to offer it for sale. Because it is currently untaxed, keeping it so under a stadium plan would not cost the city and other governments existing revenue.

...

At a late-morning press availability, Coleman said he thinks talks could move quickly. "I believe that in the next few weeks we could have a clear path forward for a stadium on that site." He said the details of what tax breaks would be asked for are still to be worked out but Coleman said the fact that much of the site hasn't been on the tax rolls for 50 years makes it easier.

The site is not exactly downtown, but it is between the two metro area cores and is served by light rail as well as exits from I-94. The region's first bus rapid transit line along Snelling — linking Rosedale to the Blue Line at 46th Street — will be finished before a stadium could open. There is also a city owned parking ramp near that could be expanded.

Coleman said Wednesday morning he thinks he would have support of City Council members and has spoken with the city's legislative delegation. While he said he is not sure if legislative action would be needed but didn't think that would make it impossible to meet MLS deadlines.

"If we have a committment and a plan going forward, even if there were required legislative approval, we could sufficiently demonstrate support that would satisfy MLS's concerns," Coleman said. "In my conversations with Deputy Commission Abbott yesterday, they need a real sense that there's a plan as opposed to a hope.
https://www.minnpost.com/politics-polic ... er-stadium
Coleman said he’d be willing to consider the kind of tax relief that the investors sought from Minneapolis. A stadium would generate enough redevelopment nearby to more than offset whatever tax breaks are offered, he said.

The Midway site promoted by Coleman is one of two in St. Paul that’s been discussed as having soccer potential; the other one, west of the State Capitol, is home to a Sears department store.

Most of the Midway site is owned by a New York-based property management firm that Coleman said has expressed interest in redeveloping the shopping center. The remaining third, the former bus barn site held by Metro Transit, might easily be offered tax free since it’s already been tax-exempt for decades, the mayor said.
http://www.startribune.com/coleman-to-s ... 312886501/

Snelbian
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Snelbian » July 14th, 2015, 2:26 pm

seanrichardryan wrote:Free? As I understand it, the Met Council has every intention of getting fair market value for their parcel.
That was my understanding as well.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the stadium going in at the bus barn site, but I'm also not super comfortable with the argument that a currently tax exempt spot should just stay that way. We can leave it as is, and collect no revenue, build a stadium and collect no revenue, or go with option 3 (already in the planning stages for the Smart Site) - build something that pays taxes. Pretending option 3 doesn't exist weakens the pro-stadium argument.

xandrex
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby xandrex » July 14th, 2015, 2:31 pm

Of course, under that model they'd still be looking at the Minneapolis site, no?

HiawathaGuy
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby HiawathaGuy » July 17th, 2015, 4:16 pm

Lot's of important people met today. I hope it helps.

Hodges, Mpls. leaders talk soccer stadium with MN United
http://www.startribune.com/hodges-mpls- ... 316269761/

acs
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby acs » July 17th, 2015, 4:32 pm


Didier
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minnesota

Postby Didier » July 23rd, 2015, 8:34 pm

The Pioneer Press is really taking a lead on this.

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_285 ... st-paul-he


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