Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Introductions - Urban Issues - Miscellaneous News, Topics, Interests
trigonalmayhem

Re: Stanton Condo Project - 121 12th Ave S

Postby trigonalmayhem » February 5th, 2016, 1:15 pm

The utility is more housing. More housing means the people who will end up living there won't have to come steal your place and price you out of it. Is it that hard to understand?

beige_box
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 104
Joined: April 24th, 2015, 6:22 pm

Re: Stanton Condo Project - 121 12th Ave S

Postby beige_box » February 6th, 2016, 1:46 pm

trigonalmayhem wrote:The utility is more housing. More housing means the people who will end up living there won't have to come steal your place and price you out of it. Is it that hard to understand?
The people who will eventually price me out of my place in South will be hip young newlyweds with college degrees and stable careers doing donor development at urbanist nonprofits, who enjoy greenery and natural light -filled homes with yards where their toddler children and/or well-curated dogs might frolic safely, and who would never dream of living in an uncool condo warehouse situated in a dull corporate neighborhood just a couple blocks from the Vikings stadium. How will this building help me?

But seriously: this building is indeed stealing conveniently located land that could otherwise have gone toward increasing housing options for working families and mitigating housing-related economic pressures those communities face--directly, instead of with your bad-faith, trickle-down approach.

Blah blah you've heard it all before, I get it. I rest knowing the historians who will pour over the contents of these message boards in a generation's time will validate me.

grrdanko
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 146
Joined: December 21st, 2014, 3:14 pm
Location: Downtown

Re: Stanton Condo Project - 121 12th Ave S

Postby grrdanko » February 6th, 2016, 3:22 pm

beige_box wrote:
trigonalmayhem wrote:The utility is more housing. More housing means the people who will end up living there won't have to come steal your place and price you out of it. Is it that hard to understand?
The people who will eventually price me out of my place in South will be hip young newlyweds with college degrees and stable careers doing donor development at urbanist nonprofits, who enjoy greenery and natural light -filled homes with yards where their toddler children and/or well-curated dogs might frolic safely, and who would never dream of living in an uncool condo warehouse situated in a dull corporate neighborhood just a couple blocks from the Vikings stadium. How will this building help me?

But seriously: this building is indeed stealing conveniently located land that could otherwise have gone toward increasing housing options for working families and mitigating housing-related economic pressures those communities face--directly, instead of with your bad-faith, trickle-down approach.

Blah blah you've heard it all before, I get it. I rest knowing the historians who will pour over the contents of these message boards in a generation's time will validate me.


With the cost of land and the cost of construction no one is going to build 3 and 4 bedroom units that rent for $1000 a month here, and I think it's too valuable a location to do it anyway. You said it yourself; it's a convenient location. Convenience has value in the marketplace so does the riverfront.

Working families aren't getting priced out of the housing market here. I just did a search and found about 50 3+ bedroom houses in the City of Minneapolis for less than $100,000. At this price with an FHA loan the payment is under $800 a month including taxes and insurance. That's affordable by any measure. There are even houses that look perfectly livable for under $60,000. That is about $500 a month including taxes and insurance.

The problem with having a city that people want to live in is that there is competition for housing. An extreme example is Manhattan housing is exponentially more expensive than Gary, Indiana. Fargo has less expensive housing than Minneapolis. It's an indicator that the city is doing well when housing prices organically go up.

I'm glad this project is getting built. This will add about 600 or so residents to downtown. That is good for the neighborhood.

beige_box
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 104
Joined: April 24th, 2015, 6:22 pm

Re: Legacy Condominiums - 121 12th Ave S

Postby beige_box » February 6th, 2016, 3:53 pm

grrdanko wrote:Working families aren't getting priced out of the housing market here. I just did a search and found about 50 3+ bedroom houses in the City of Minneapolis for less than $100,000.
Vast majority (and increasingly so) of those houses are in the Northside. You're advocating that we do nothing to challenge the market as it forces working families into the city's least accessible, most disinvested, most unsafe neighborhood. You're basically telling poor and marginalized people to go back to the what city planners once literally labelled as the official ghetto.

min-chi-cbus
Capella Tower
Posts: 3131
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 9:19 am

Re: Legacy Condominiums - 121 12th Ave S

Postby min-chi-cbus » February 6th, 2016, 7:44 pm

Where are those houses? Are they in decent school districts? There is definitely a shortage of affordable housing in the city and metro, but this may not be the best place to put that housing anyway, I agree there.

grrdanko
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 146
Joined: December 21st, 2014, 3:14 pm
Location: Downtown

Re: Legacy Condominiums - 121 12th Ave S

Postby grrdanko » February 6th, 2016, 10:02 pm

min-chi-cbus wrote:Where are those houses? Are they in decent school districts? There is definitely a shortage of affordable housing in the city and metro, but this may not be the best place to put that housing anyway, I agree there.

All these houses are in the City of Minneapolis so no they aren't in a good school district.

This is off topic but it's embarrassing that the Minneapolis school district can't even graduate 50% of their students.

VAStationDude
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 782
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:30 am

Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby VAStationDude » February 7th, 2016, 10:11 am

It's remarkable how public policy that segregates poor kids and English learners results in poor educational outcomes. Minneapolis should learn from Minnetonka and do whatever they can to shut out anyone who isn't poor from living in the district.

Rich
Rice Park
Posts: 413
Joined: June 30th, 2012, 7:12 pm

Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby Rich » February 7th, 2016, 2:47 pm

VAStationDude wrote:Minneapolis should learn from Minnetonka and do whatever they can to shut out anyone who isn't poor from living in the district.
That's the exact opposite of the truth. About a third of Minnetonka students - almost 3,000 kids - are open enrollees who commute from other districts. It’s first-come, first-served. All are welcome. And of course many kids come from Minneapolis.

VAStationDude
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 782
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:30 am

Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby VAStationDude » February 7th, 2016, 3:08 pm

Apparently where you went to school didn't teach reading comprehension. I wrote Minnetonka does whatever they can block poor people from living in the district. That is an undeniable truth. I'm aware of open enrollment. I don't blame parents from Minneapolis who enroll their kids in suburban schools. A better solution would be more affordable housing near schools and jobs in the western suburbs.

grant1simons2
IDS Center
Posts: 4293
Joined: February 8th, 2014, 11:33 pm
Location: Marcy-Holmes

Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby grant1simons2 » February 7th, 2016, 3:12 pm

We've heard this one before. Welcome to the original suburbia concept!

Rich
Rice Park
Posts: 413
Joined: June 30th, 2012, 7:12 pm

Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby Rich » February 7th, 2016, 3:30 pm

VAStationDude wrote:Apparently where you went to school didn't teach reading comprehension. I wrote Minnetonka does whatever they can block poor people from living in the district.
Yikes! You're right, I completely misread that.

grrdanko
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 146
Joined: December 21st, 2014, 3:14 pm
Location: Downtown

Re: Legacy Condominiums - 121 12th Ave S

Postby grrdanko » February 7th, 2016, 4:14 pm

beige_box wrote:
grrdanko wrote:Working families aren't getting priced out of the housing market here. I just did a search and found about 50 3+ bedroom houses in the City of Minneapolis for less than $100,000.
Vast majority (and increasingly so) of those houses are in the Northside. You're advocating that we do nothing to challenge the market as it forces working families into the city's least accessible, most disinvested, most unsafe neighborhood. You're basically telling poor and marginalized people to go back to the what city planners once literally labelled as the official ghetto.

There are many nice places to live on the north side and many of the houses I mentioned are on quiet safe streets. I know the public perception is that the entire area is a war zone, but that is not the case at all. I'm not saying the entire area is safe. Some of it is very dangerous, but a ghetto? This is one of the least population dense areas of the entire city. Ghettos are over crowded. The north side is up and coming. In 15 years it will be like Northeast as long as the progress isn't stopped by zoning or nimbys. There are real gains to be made for people who purchase houses in North Minneapolis. This area is too close to the center of the city for the values to remain low forever. It wasn't that long ago that people were afraid to go into the Phillips Neighborhood. I'd classify it as hip now.

The trouble with being poor and marginalized is that most things are out of your reach; as unfair as this is public housing policy won't change it. The perception that North Minneapolis is terrible is holding prices artificially low. This is an opportunity for poor and marginalized people to own property that will exponentially raise in value over the next 20 years. People in those positions rarely get the opportunity to build real wealth.

Spend some time in North before you call it a ghetto.

beige_box
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 104
Joined: April 24th, 2015, 6:22 pm

Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby beige_box » February 7th, 2016, 7:37 pm

North isn't a ghetto, but it was designed to be a ghetto (via its inaccessibility), and if our affordable housing "solution" is to let all the lower-income families in South to get displaced into North, it will function as a ghetto again. I do spend time in North, I know there are huge areas that are far more comparable to Uptown and Phillips in terms of crime, beautiful houses, etc. As for the idea that the poor could use this as a wealth-generating opportunity, it's not the poor who treat their homes as investment opportunities--usually they're just looking for a stable spot to raise their kids. Moreover, North is ground zero of foreclosed homes being bought by giant Wall Street hedge funds and turned into rentals, so the amount of houses on the market is actually on the wane there. If North becomes "up and coming", the same process will simply happen again, and many of the same families will be displaced again.

min-chi-cbus
Capella Tower
Posts: 3131
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 9:19 am

Re: Legacy Condominiums - 121 12th Ave S

Postby min-chi-cbus » February 7th, 2016, 8:47 pm

grrdanko wrote:
min-chi-cbus wrote:Where are those houses? Are they in decent school districts? There is definitely a shortage of affordable housing in the city and metro, but this may not be the best place to put that housing anyway, I agree there.

All these houses are in the City of Minneapolis so no they aren't in a good school district.

This is off topic but it's embarrassing that the Minneapolis school district can't even graduate 50% of their students.
Thanks for proving my point, and for the thoughtless answer (some Mpls school districts are top notch).

min-chi-cbus
Capella Tower
Posts: 3131
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 9:19 am

Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby min-chi-cbus » February 7th, 2016, 9:31 pm

Thoughtless was a strong word, so I apologize about that, but I guess my point was that the only affordable homes for families are in areas where crime is an issue or the schools are terrible, or both. There is definitely nowhere near enough supply to satiate affordable housing demand. If I could figure out a way to run a business that creates (quality) affordable housing for a profit I would.

grrdanko
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 146
Joined: December 21st, 2014, 3:14 pm
Location: Downtown

Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby grrdanko » February 8th, 2016, 8:58 am

min-chi-cbus wrote:Thoughtless was a strong word, so I apologize about that, but I guess my point was that the only affordable homes for families are in areas where crime is an issue or the schools are terrible, or both. There is definitely nowhere near enough supply to satiate affordable housing demand. If I could figure out a way to run a business that creates (quality) affordable housing for a profit I would.
There is only one school district in The City of Minneapolis. Your address doesn't necessarily dictate the school you will go to. The school issue is a city wide problem. Not North dragging the numbers down. The sad state of Minneapolis Public Schools is driving families out of the city both rich and poor.

grant1simons2
IDS Center
Posts: 4293
Joined: February 8th, 2014, 11:33 pm
Location: Marcy-Holmes

Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby grant1simons2 » February 8th, 2016, 9:04 am

But there are kids who are in IB and AP classes at these high schools. I know a big chunk of people at SW and Washburn who are going on to do amazing things with their lives. Some are going to Ivy league or west coast schools, and others want to work with their own community right away. Although the 50% is an awful number, it seems like a good blanket over all the good that's actually happening insides the schools.

WHS
Landmark Center
Posts: 202
Joined: April 25th, 2014, 10:57 am

Re: Legacy Condominiums - 121 12th Ave S

Postby WHS » February 12th, 2016, 6:40 pm

grrdanko wrote:
min-chi-cbus wrote:Where are those houses? Are they in decent school districts? There is definitely a shortage of affordable housing in the city and metro, but this may not be the best place to put that housing anyway, I agree there.

All these houses are in the City of Minneapolis so no they aren't in a good school district.

This is off topic but it's embarrassing that the Minneapolis school district can't even graduate 50% of their students.
Where are you getting these numbers on Minneapolis schools? That graduation rate isn't even remotely accurate. Calculating accurate graduation rates is an incredibly complicated task because of a combination of data availability issues and definitional issues, but Minneapolis reports a four-year graduation rate of 58 percent, with only 9 percent of students dropping out and most of the rest continuing for an extra year or more.

Minneapolis Public Schools is an intensely segregated system, so you have a number of heavily-nonwhite high-poverty schools that are struggling badly, and a number of integrated or predominately white schools that are doing quite well. Southwest High School, for instance, is arguably one of the best schools in the state.

Also, while avoiding the semantic debate of whether North is or is not a ghetto, I don't know why anyone thinks its relatively sparse population would have any bearing on that question. Nineteenth-century horror over crowded and ethnically diverse tenement blocks aside, poor, segregated neighborhoods aren't very desirable places to live and don't tend to hold their residents for long. Anyone who can leave does leave, populations fall, services erode, schools close, in a vicious feedback loop. Frankly, this is precisely what has happened in a lot of North: the neighborhood is slowly being drained by the (basically accurate) perception that in the eyes of private investors and public policymakers it's a dumping ground for affordable housing and social services, bereft of real educational or economic opportunity.

WHS
Landmark Center
Posts: 202
Joined: April 25th, 2014, 10:57 am

Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby WHS » February 12th, 2016, 6:50 pm

Rich wrote:
VAStationDude wrote:Minneapolis should learn from Minnetonka and do whatever they can to shut out anyone who isn't poor from living in the district.
That's the exact opposite of the truth. About a third of Minnetonka students - almost 3,000 kids - are open enrollees who commute from other districts. It’s first-come, first-served. All are welcome. And of course many kids come from Minneapolis.
Notably, however, Minnetonka does NOT participate in the Choice Is Yours program, unlike virtually all of its neighboring districts to the east. The difference is that CIY provides transportation to poor students who want to open enroll into other districts, while traditional open enrollment requires that parents provide their own transportation -- an effective sorting mechanism for students coming all the way from Minneapolis. Instead, Minnetonka has run radio advertisements whenever neighboring districts sought to redraw attendance boundaries in an integrative fashion, basically encouraging disgruntled middle-class white parents to open enroll into its district.

That's how Minnetonka can open enroll a third of its students and maintain a poverty rate of 7 percent, while the poverty rate in the neighboring Hopkins district is 37 percent, and the poverty rate in Minneapolis is 64 percent.

Rich
Rice Park
Posts: 413
Joined: June 30th, 2012, 7:12 pm

Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby Rich » February 13th, 2016, 7:24 am

WHS wrote:Minnetonka does NOT participate in the Choice Is Yours program
That’s surprising, given the district’s eagerness to open their doors to everyone, and their history of outreach to inner city schools. I’d be curious to know why they weren’t chosen to participate.


Return to “Anything Goes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests