Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

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EOst
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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby EOst » March 31st, 2017, 10:58 am

mplsjaromir wrote:
March 31st, 2017, 7:18 am
lol. Housing preservationists are almost always acting in bad faith.
Not gonna excuse the behavior in the video, but this is way too far.

VAStationDude
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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby VAStationDude » March 31st, 2017, 6:16 pm

Residential historic preservation in Minneapolis has been done almost entirely in bad faith. Look at the districts - 8th Avenue, Milwaukee avenue, and Healy. All those are well people with too much time on their hands dictating what happens in poor neighborhoods. Lowry Hill East, Marcy Holmes and the new proposed North Side are to prevent more people from moving into accessible transit rich neighborhoods. City staff has recommended a lake of the Isles district for years but the council hasn't acted on it. Zoning and long term planning prevent anything but single family homes that area. Why is it less worthy of protection? Because adhering to the historic district standards would cost rich people money. The same thing happened in prospect Park

EOst
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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby EOst » March 31st, 2017, 6:42 pm

Bad faith (Latin: mala fides) is double mindedness or double heartedness in duplicity, fraud, or deception. It may involve intentional deceit of others, or self-deception.

In the 1913 Webster’s Dictionary, bad faith was equated with being double hearted, "of two hearts", or "a sustained form of deception which consists in entertaining or pretending to entertain one set of feelings, and acting as if influenced by another". The concept is similar to perfidy, or being "without faith", in which deception is achieved when one side in a conflict promises to act in good faith (e.g. by raising a flag of surrender) with the intention of breaking that promise once the enemy has exposed himself.
I think reasonable people can disagree about whether or not historic preservation is a good idea, and I've no doubt that some of the people who yell "historic preservation!!!" have ulterior motives that have nothing to do with history. But I've met more than a few of the people you're talking about, and it is absolutely clear that they do honestly and deeply care about preserving our civic and architectural history. That doesn't mean they aren't also "well-off people with too much time in their hands," but saying that people who have dedicated decades of their lives to painstaking research and incredibly expensive (and unprofitable) restorations are part of some bizarre conspiracy to kill multi-family housing is just nuts.

(Also, there is no 8th Avenue historic district.)

mplsjaromir
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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby mplsjaromir » March 31st, 2017, 7:02 pm

Historic Preservationists are just people who have enough time and money to bug elected officials. In no reality would a poor person care about preserving dead peoples homes, material concerns will always be more important.

I am childhood friends with a recent minneapolis 'historic preservationist' who the local media quoted ad nauseam. I was told by the newly minted preservationist that the motivation for opposing development was not historic preservation, rather it was preserving real estate value. The individual did laugh about how many rubes lined up to get behind the totally made up and disingenuous movement. Just like how the Healy people wanted Nicole Curtiss to buy the Motiv property, and now it comes to light that she is a lying deadbeat.

VAStationDude
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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby VAStationDude » March 31st, 2017, 7:07 pm

I have a kid so I know all about unprofitable labors of love.

The way preservation has played out in Minneapolis makes it pretty clear to me the way the tool has been used is to impose on poor people and enforce a particular set's preference for single family homes.

Having a year old child, a real career, and consuming an imperial ipa on an empty stomach impaired my ability to get the 9th street historic district name correct.

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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby seanrichardryan » March 31st, 2017, 8:32 pm

pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft.
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

EOst
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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby EOst » March 31st, 2017, 8:50 pm

Look, if telling yourself that historic preservation is just some massive con perpetrated by rich assholes against virtuous, highly oppressed developers is what gets you through the night, that's your right. But I don't think it's a great route to win the battles you want to win.

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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby VAStationDude » March 31st, 2017, 9:07 pm

Palling around with alleged petty vandals (and total fucking children) makes you....?

Aside from feeling a bit cooped up because of my home obligations I am right where I want to be. I do not need a salve like loving an inanimate object.

Nice straw man, Herodotus. The wedge might be the Minneapolis neighborhood most conducive to urban living. The blue line extension is an expensive amenity that should be accessible to more people not wasted on wealthy cranks who will never use it. Sorry but preservation has the affect of shutting people out of those hoods. That developers might lose out is not a concern for me. (Don't forget one of the alleged petty vandals stands to profit off the vanity of rich people with too much time.)

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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby mplsjaromir » March 31st, 2017, 9:19 pm

Show me a historic preservationist who isn't a rich land owner.

Preservation is about keeping poor people out of rich neighborhoods. All of the Healy people are rich white people, not one exception. They know it and are probably proud.

EOst
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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby EOst » March 31st, 2017, 10:06 pm

@VAStationDude
I think the behavior in the video is inexcusable, but I've never met Constance Pepin, and I don't pretend to know her thinking there. Nor have I met Anders Christensen, though I've had some interaction with nonprofit he's affiliated with. I do, however, respect much (I don't want to say all) of the work he has done. Have you met them? Everything I have read or heard about Christensen, at least, would suggest that he has an honest belief in the importance of preserving certain buildings. If you have evidence that his motivations are otherwise--i.e., that he is acting in "bad faith"--I would really like to hear it, for my own sake as much as for this conversation.

I'm genuinely sorry that you're feeling cooped up! But I must admit that I do love some inanimate objects, and I'm at least a little bit surprised that you seem to suggest that you don't. What are the limits of this?--i.e. do you believe in protecting "cultural patrimony" in general? Let's take something crazy: if May's Britain sold Stonehenge to a developer, would you support them if they wanted to demolish it for housing? Put another way: is there any building for which the government could be justified in preventing its destruction?

I don't accept your premise that historic preservation is incompatible with the creation of great urban spaces. I fully admit that it has a cost, but I don't think it is a primary or even tertiary driver of housing cost in the Twin Cities. And anyway, I am willing to accept all sorts of costs (like taxes) for things I value; why should historic preservation be any different as such? (Again, knowing that reasonable people can disagree about whether it's worth the cost.)

@mplsjaromir
I don't know what sort of person you would accept as a "historic preservationist." Do you mean anyone who believes that some old buildings should be saved, or do you mean the people who spend most of their time and/or derive their income from remodeling old houses? I can't imagine you really think that there are no non-"rich land owners" in the former group, but the latter is a pretty narrow definition.

I don't think that historic preservation is "about keeping poor people out of rich neighborhoods"--at least, that's not why I believe in (some of) it. As I was saying to VAStationDude, I really strongly think you're a lot better off trying to understand the motivations of the people you're arguing against, in their own terms, than making these kinds of reductive denunciations. But, again, that's your right.

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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby mplsjaromir » March 31st, 2017, 10:14 pm

Again, show me a person, a person who is not privileged, that believes in 'historic preservation'. You will not. No one who is poor cares about big houses being preserved. There are certain properties that can be saved to persevere an aesthetic of a certain place in time, but preservationists abuse that common belief to hate on poor people.

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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby FISHMANPET » March 31st, 2017, 10:20 pm

http://www.opb.org/radio/article/keep-e ... ntroversy/
The reason has less to do with traditional historic preservation than with stopping the changes going on across the city, such as demolitions, new infill housing, and “monster homes.”

“The board’s worked hard for about three years to try to get the city to deal with this through coding, zoning and through the comprehensive plan,” said the Eastmoreland Neighborhood Association’s president, Tom Hanson.

“While we had considered historic district designation in the past, we had thought the other mechanisms were more appropriate to work through the city. But when they were not fruitful, then we moved to considering historic district designation.”
I mean, I don't know. I don't think every single historic district proposal is about secret Nimbyism. But the larger the district and the broader the merit of the history, the less I'm inclined that it's about genuine historic preservation.

I will also say that the Lowry Hill East Residential Historic District, entirely within walking distance of two Hi-frequency bus routes, surrounded by walkable amenities, and just generally one of the best places in the Twin Cities to live without a car, is filled with nearly half million dollar mansions.. There's certainly a debate to be had as to whether or not it's "worth" it to preserve these unaffordable homes in a housing shortage in a walkable neighborhood is up for debate (and we both know which side of that debate we'd fall on) but to pretend that there's only a little impact is a little disingenuous.

EOst
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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby EOst » March 31st, 2017, 11:01 pm

mplsjaromir wrote:
March 31st, 2017, 10:14 pm
Again, show me a person, a person who is not privileged, that believes in 'historic preservation'. You will not. No one who is poor cares about big houses being preserved. There are certain properties that can be saved to persevere an aesthetic of a certain place in time, but preservationists abuse that common belief to hate on poor people.
My next-door neighbor.

I mean, really, this is silly. Milwaukee Avenue wasn't the result of some rich busybodies swooping in, it was the residents of tiny houses on a run-down street fighting a city effort to remove some of the worst blight in the region. Stevens Square was the creation of the occupants of tiny apartments in the epicenter of the crack trade. Your portrait is deeply ahistorical.
FISHMANPET wrote:I mean, I don't know. I don't think every single historic district proposal is about secret Nimbyism. But the larger the district and the broader the merit of the history, the less I'm inclined that it's about genuine historic preservation.
I think there are more than a few dubious historic district proposals out there--I would shrink Homewood pretty considerably, for example--but I do also think that there are historic districts genuinely worthy of recognition and preservation. Certainly we have to weigh their consequences carefully, and not every old building or neighborhood can or should be saved. But I don't like "none."
I will also say that the Healy Block Historic district, entirely within walking distance of two Hi-frequency bus routes, surrounded by walkable amenities, and just generally one of the best places in the Twin Cities to live without a car, is filled with nearly half million dollar mansions. There's certainly a debate to be had as to whether or not it's "worth" it to preserve these unaffordable homes in a housing shortage in a walkable neighborhood is up for debate (and we both know which side of that debate we'd fall on) but to pretend that there's only a little impact is a little disingenuous.
It's also surrounded (on both sides of 35W) with R4 and R5 parcels/blocks, none of which have seen much if any development ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby FISHMANPET » March 31st, 2017, 11:03 pm

I originally said Healy block but I actually meant the Lowry Hill East Residential District. I have no thoughts on the Healy block.

VAStationDude
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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby VAStationDude » April 1st, 2017, 10:28 am

Eost you're not the person who pals around with vandals.

You said I need to stick up for developers to make it through the night. My response was was that I'm better than fine. I have enough going for me that I don't need to celebrate a greedy developer, sorry master craftsman, of years gone by.

My point isn't that preservation has no merit. The warehouse district is gem thanks to efforts of preservationists and the city. I'm just pointing out how it's played out in Minneapolis residential districts and the lack of districts in areas that clearly merit protection if judged like poorer neighborhoods or those close to downtown or the u.

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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby amiller92 » April 3rd, 2017, 12:50 pm

EOst wrote:
March 31st, 2017, 11:01 pm
I would shrink Homewood pretty considerably, for example
Honestly, I think I have a bigger problem with how historic districts get drawn, and the guidelines that get put in place to try to enforce them, than with their existence.

And Homewood is a good example. There's something there we should keep, but if you define it as pre-1950 single family homes, you get an ridiculously broad district protecting nothing of particular note.

Or elsewhere you get height restrictions that are already a-typical for the area.

Part of the problem is that preservation is done, by default, by people who value it more than the general public.

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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby amiller92 » April 3rd, 2017, 12:53 pm

VAStationDude wrote:
April 1st, 2017, 10:28 am
The warehouse district is gem thanks to efforts of preservationists and the city.
:?

Maybe I need to read up on my preservation history, but in my incomplete memory the Warehouse District is a gem because nobody wanted to build anything different over there for a long time so there are a bunch of old buildings. Good on the preservationists for protecting what was already there once the cycle turned, though.

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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby twincitizen » May 9th, 2017, 1:17 pm

NPRticle on the effects of the LIHTC program: http://www.npr.org/2017/05/09/527046451 ... lters-less

EOst
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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby EOst » May 19th, 2017, 1:29 pm

Question for anyone.

What's your current thinking about new affordable housing (i.e. restricted by AMI) within existing areas of concentrated poverty? Particularly in areas of particularly deep poverty, where the average median income is already less than 30% of AMI? Is this just further concentrating poverty? Should neighbors/city officials/etc. push for more market rate units? Or is the affordable housing so necessary from a citywide perspective that local considerations are less important?

I remember this coming up a little when we discussed the Rose Quarter development at Franklin and Portland, where some argued that the development (and the other three corners) just further concentrated poverty in a poor majority-minority neighborhood. I also noticed today (via @mspyimby) that Whittier's plans call for it to reject new affordable housing projects.

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Re: Subsidized and/or Affordable Housing

Postby David Greene » May 19th, 2017, 4:45 pm

FWIW, Harrison and other Near North communities have pushed for market-rate housing in the past while also keeping an eye on gentrification. So it's not an either-or. Communities like Harrison understand the critical importance of co-locating affordable housing and good transit access.


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