Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

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FranklinAveFixation
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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby FranklinAveFixation » October 3rd, 2014, 12:56 pm

and convention goers, and anyone eating and drinking in dt restaurants and bars. anyone spending money downtown is a minneapolis taxpayer.
Following this line on reasoning shouldn't all parking lot tailgating in the city be banned, so that any ticket holders drinking or eating before/after the games actually spend money in Minneapolis?

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xandrex
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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby xandrex » October 3rd, 2014, 1:00 pm

and convention goers, and anyone eating and drinking in dt restaurants and bars. anyone spending money downtown is a minneapolis taxpayer.
You really think it is worth taxing everyone in Minneapolis for something we absolutely don't need and which doesn't benefit the city, in order for us to also tax non-Minneapolis guests for something they may not need? For real? I can think of a million things we need more than a stadium, and many of those would benefit visitors too.
I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, but isn't it a little disingenuous to say it taxes everyone if its a sales tax specifically for food and drink downtown? I'm no fan of it (I means I pay over 10 percent tax on my morning coffee or work lunch if I forget to pack one), but spending that money downtown is as much a choice as paying for parking because you decided to drive downtown.

It's probably also not right to say there is no benefit to the city. I think it might more accurately be that the benefits may not outweigh the costs.

mattaudio
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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby mattaudio » October 3rd, 2014, 1:09 pm

Don't forget there's a 0.5% citywide sales tax that accounts for the largest share of the revenue (44.5%). So that means we're instituting a regressive tax, even on the poorest neighborhoods in the region where it will have the highest tax incidence (literally making poor people poorer).

But for the 3.0% entertainment / restaurant / lodging / liquor taxes. You're right, it is a choice to spend money downtown. Good thing we're incenting people to *not* spend downtown, right?

And it's true, there might be a small sliver of benefit. But it's not a net benefit. There's no way the stadium deal will ever be a net benefit for the city.

I suggest people who are still a fan of the stadium deal read some of Ed Kohler's work.

Here's a good primer of the taxes: http://www.minnpost.com/minnesota-blog- ... gs-stadium

And remember when this was sold as a way to lower property taxes? Gary Schiff said it best. "I'll pay far more in those sales taxes than I'll ever get back in a property tax rebate. So to sell this as a property tax rebate is misleading to taxpayers."

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby MNdible » October 3rd, 2014, 2:20 pm

Matt, I certainly don't claim to understand all of this financing. That said, as I do understand it, your numbers relate to the total amount that all of those sales taxes generate, not the amount that the Vikings Stadium will use.

Image

This is from the MinnPost article you linked to. It shows how much all of these taxes generated in 2010, as the city was still stumbling out of the recession. We would expect that these numbers have already increased markedly, as new hotels and restaurants have opened downtown. But for these purposes, let's assume that they don't grow at all, not even due to inflation. The lodging and hospitality taxes generate $34.1m per year.

The article notes that the city is on the hook for $675m over thirty years, when all interest costs and operating support are factored in. That works out to $22.5m per year, much less than the $34.1m that the hospitality taxes generate.

Some articles note that the city could be on the hook for up to $890m over that same time period, but that "worst case" only occurs if the city's haul from the above taxes increases well-beyond the growth projected in the legislation. My personal opinion is that this likely will occur, but while the city is chipping in more towards the operating costs, it also will be keeping a much higher portion of the hospitality taxes to go towards the general fund. If you note, $890m per year over 30 years is still less than the $34.1m that the hospitality taxes generated in 2010.

Not factored into all of this are the costs of the Convention Center and Target Center. But note that the overruns on Target Center are currently being funded out of the general fund, so being able to pay for them with a portion of the hospitality taxes is a real plus for taxpayers. And the big convention center debt will be paid off by 2020.

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby mattaudio » October 3rd, 2014, 2:31 pm

So $890 million over 30 years, and the article notes that 44.5% of the revenues have come from the regressive 0.5% citywide sales tax that makes poor people poorer. So, for this 0.5% sales tax to recoup 44.5% of that $890m and break even, it means the stadium would have to generate nearly $80 BILLION over that 30 years, or $2.64 BILLION per year. Do you think people are spending $2.64 BILLION more, per year, in Minneapolis than they would have if we didn't have this stadium? The math is that simple.

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby MNdible » October 3rd, 2014, 2:37 pm

Just to be clear, the $34.1m number I noted does not include any funds generated by the 0.5% city-wide sales tax.

I'm not defending public financing of the plan, but I am noting that the deal that the City of Minneapolis is getting is much better than many make it out to be.

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby MNdible » October 3rd, 2014, 2:46 pm

I'll also point out that Ed Kohler and Gary Schiff aren't exactly unbiased sources to be citing.

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby mattaudio » October 3rd, 2014, 2:53 pm

Neither is RT Rybak or Lester Bagley.

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby xandrex » October 3rd, 2014, 3:17 pm

Don't forget there's a 0.5% citywide sales tax that accounts for the largest share of the revenue (44.5%). So that means we're instituting a regressive tax, even on the poorest neighborhoods in the region where it will have the highest tax incidence (literally making poor people poorer).

But for the 3.0% entertainment / restaurant / lodging / liquor taxes. You're right, it is a choice to spend money downtown. Good thing we're incenting people to *not* spend downtown, right?

And it's true, there might be a small sliver of benefit. But it's not a net benefit. There's no way the stadium deal will ever be a net benefit for the city.
I have my doubts that sales tax actually plays into peoples' decisions on where they will eat or drink (and knowing how company's spend money, I don't for a second believe it actually impacts where they lodge their employees). I don't think anyone stumbling down First Avenue cares, nor those frequenting classier joints who have the money to overlook a few extra cents. I'm much more inclined to believe the hassle of getting downtown and paying for parking deters people (knowing or simply hearing more than a few people who have made comments about this).

And if we're worried about our tax rates being too high (and taking more money out of people's pockets), can slapping on a new transit tax be justified? I support one, but it certainly makes one wonder how high is too high for a tax rate.

I don't think the stadium by itself will return a profit for the city. Its financing is shaky. Whether or not there are intangible benefits (securing Wells Fargo, perhaps) that can justify the extra cost will be seen, I suppose. I'm really mostly a neutral bystander.

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby MNdible » October 3rd, 2014, 3:25 pm

Neither is RT Rybak or Lester Bagley.
Neither of whom I referenced in my analysis of the numbers above.

Seriously, if my numbers are wrong, show me where. But the 0.5% city-wide sales tax appears to be operating solely as a backstop for the other taxes, one which is very unlikely to need to be tapped.

For example, if we assume that inflation is the only thing effecting this (no actual growth from population increases, the growing popularity of downtown, etc.), and if we assume that the $34.1m from 2010 is the current value, and if we assume that inflation stays at a super-low 2% for the entire duration of the 30 years... then inflation alone will grow that $34.1m to $61.7m.

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby MNdible » October 3rd, 2014, 4:05 pm

So, I've looked into this a bit further, and it appears that they are currently using some of these funds for operating costs of the Convention Center and Target Center -- this muddies the picture a bit, as these costs won't go away. In the interest of full disclosure.

PDF that sort of explains this, but really only makes it more confusing.

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby mattaudio » October 15th, 2014, 9:54 am

Responding to https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f=13& ... 472#p70467

It's this simple: While it's great that other groups or activities, from rollerdome to co-ed touch football, can make use of a brand new billion dollar stadium, it doesn't justify it. The reality is that those events did not even cover the cost of keeping the Metrodome running (heck, the Vikings $4 million per month dome rent was waived for the last decade, so it's not like they were covering their costs either)... so there's no way these events make financial sense in a new stadium. The only "justification" for the new stadium is the Vikings' threat to skip town. I can't believe people are pretending that this is actually a Peoples' Stadium, and that a half cent citywide sales tax plus the highest downtown hospitality taxes in the country are justified because a couple thousand people can play touch football in a new billion dollar stadium in March.

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby IllogicalJake » October 15th, 2014, 10:02 am

Responding to https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f=13& ... 472#p70467

It's this simple: While it's great that other groups or activities, from rollerdome to co-ed touch football, can make use of a brand new billion dollar stadium, it doesn't justify it. The reality is that those events did not even cover the cost of keeping the Metrodome running (heck, the Vikings $4 million per month dome rent was waived for the last decade, so it's not like they were covering their costs either)... so there's no way these events make financial sense in a new stadium. The only "justification" for the new stadium is the Vikings' threat to skip town. I can't believe people are pretending that this is actually a Peoples' Stadium, and that a half cent citywide sales tax plus the highest downtown hospitality taxes in the country are justified because a couple thousand people can play touch football in a new billion dollar stadium in March.
Feels like you're responding to something that the post you linked to didn't even mention.

That post seemed more targeted to people who claim it'll only get used 8 days out of 365. I know it's all related, but nowhere is the post you're responding to defending the amount of money spent on the stadium, just that it'll be used much more than some are saying. "The stadium will be active" isn't "The stadium is worth every penny!"
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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby mattaudio » October 15th, 2014, 10:13 am

It will only get used 8-12 days out of 365 for the purpose that justified its existence. It's nice, but rather irrelevant, that there are other uses on other days.

Getting to your point, IllogicalJake, it may be more active than zero on those ~97% of days, but let's look at the opportunity cost for roughly six square blocks of downtown. It's not hard to imagine other uses that would draw more than a city-league touch football game or a few hundred folks rollerblading around the concourse.

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby aeisenberg » October 15th, 2014, 10:36 am

Responding to https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f=13& ... 472#p70467

It's this simple: While it's great that other groups or activities, from rollerdome to co-ed touch football, can make use of a brand new billion dollar stadium, it doesn't justify it. The reality is that those events did not even cover the cost of keeping the Metrodome running (heck, the Vikings $4 million per month dome rent was waived for the last decade, so it's not like they were covering their costs either)... so there's no way these events make financial sense in a new stadium. The only "justification" for the new stadium is the Vikings' threat to skip town. I can't believe people are pretending that this is actually a Peoples' Stadium, and that a half cent citywide sales tax plus the highest downtown hospitality taxes in the country are justified because a couple thousand people can play touch football in a new billion dollar stadium in March.
The Vikings are the only justification, eh? Because the Metrodome was a world-class facility, right? And Downtown East was doing so well, right?
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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby FISHMANPET » October 15th, 2014, 10:41 am

I'd say the Metrodome was in the same class as the team itself ;)
(not a sports fan I just hear the Vikings suck)

mattaudio
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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby mattaudio » October 15th, 2014, 10:42 am

Yes, the Vikings were the justification. Give me another scenario where the Vikings didn't exist, didn't complain about their current stadium, or didn't threaten to leave, where we would have seen a new billion dollar stadium...

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby aeisenberg » October 15th, 2014, 11:30 am

Yes, the Vikings were the justification. Give me another scenario where the Vikings didn't exist, didn't complain about their current stadium, or didn't threaten to leave, where we would have seen a new billion dollar stadium...
One in which we have a cheap, old, crappy, 32 year old stadium on a deserted corner of downtown that needs to be replaced? Or where we don't have an NFL team at all, and we pay 100% of the costs for a stadium to lure a franchise with no history here into moving? Either one of those. I'm not a Vikings fan, but I understand the civic value of pro sports teams and the difficulty of getting them after they're lost, the cold hard fact that every city wants one, and the fact that if the Vikings wanted to, they could find another city willing to foot a bigger bill than Minneapolis did. In this case we got a publicly owned stadium that the team paid half the cost for.

I choose to look at this as a pragmatic, necessary public investment which maintains an important local institution, replaces the highest-profile stadium in our state, which, by the way, was an EMBARRASSMENT, and spurs a TON of private investment around an area where it is absolutely needed. I hope you do, too.
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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby mattaudio » October 15th, 2014, 11:40 am

You have to be joking.

Who cares if it was a cheap, old, crappy, 32 year old stadium? City league volleyball and rollerdome don't justify the existence of a stadium, whether it's the Dome or the new one. If we decided that the cheap, old, crappy 32 year old stadium was too expensive to maintain, we could have asked the Vikings to pay to maintain it. Or if they are out of the picture, then we could tear it down. Especially given the opportunity cost for that land.

And where exactly does your understanding of the civic value of pro sports teams come from? Every single study I've seen says it's a wash at best, and a fleecing of the public at worst (and most lean towards the latter).

Governor Dayton: “I’m not one to defend the economics of professional sports … Any deal you make in that world doesn’t make sense from the way the rest of us look at it.”
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... rs/309448/

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Re: Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

Postby IllogicalJake » October 15th, 2014, 12:17 pm

You have to be joking.

Who cares if it was a cheap, old, crappy, 32 year old stadium?
It's funny because lots of people care.
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