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David Greene
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby David Greene » September 30th, 2014, 1:37 pm

Wedgeguy wrote:Entrances to any tower facing Nicollet can be either on 3rd or 4th.
Why? Traditionally we built buildings with retail and office/housing and the entrances to the latter were right next to the entrances to the former. We want to encourage activity on the Mall.

m b p
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby m b p » September 30th, 2014, 1:40 pm

Nathan wrote:
grant1simons2 wrote:I'm not believing any of it until I actually see an official proposal. Like I said previously, it could go back up to 50-60 stories in a week and we wouldn't even know it. People who have information were actually surprised that the 2 30 story plans hit the press because that still wasn't settled on.
what does that say about people in the know? it's all rumor until plans hit the city's desk and even then it might not be successful.

I'm going to start a rumor that they are building a stairway to Heaven. Guess what. There are no real plans for them to build a stairway to heaven. No architect is actively working on that. Nobody is actively gathering money to build a stairway to Heaven. That is an example of a complete rumor.

Now lets look at what's happening at the Ritz Block. People are privately gathering money. An architect was hired, came up with a plan, and was paid. One of the planned towers for the block was to be 710 ft... one was to be 1050 ft. Opus appears to be passing on those plans. Those are all facts (not rumors).

I can understand why people, who shared these facts with us, are upset that people are now calling them rumor spreaders. If I was Avian, I'd be thinking that I would never share insider information again... because if it doesn't come into exact fruition, I'll be called a liar and accused of spreading rumors.

IllogicalJake
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby IllogicalJake » September 30th, 2014, 2:33 pm

m b p wrote:I can understand why people, who shared these facts with us, are upset that people are now calling them rumor spreaders. If I was Avian, I'd be thinking that I would never share insider information again... because if it doesn't come into exact fruition, I'll be called a liar and accused of spreading rumors.
My favorite part is how eager we are to turn away others that are also interested in Minnesota's development because we don't like what they discuss. It's like sometimes this community tries as hard as it can to divide itself and create sides, no matter how much we're pushing for the same goals.

Oh, someone that actually has knowledge of urban development and first-hand involvement rather than just commenting on pictures? You make us mad. Get out.
i talk too much. web dev, downtown. admin @ tower.ly

twincitizen
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby twincitizen » September 30th, 2014, 2:39 pm

For the record, I specifically said that the Lord & Taylor thing sounded rumor-ish:
A. Because the media hasn't caught a whiff of it
B. Because there are members of said media posting in this thread

I absolutely did not call anyone a liar or intentionally hurt anyone's feely-feels.

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Nathan
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby Nathan » September 30th, 2014, 4:13 pm

IllogicalJake wrote:
Nathan wrote: what does that say about people in the know?
That unfinalized proposals have a strong chance of changing or never seeing the light of day. Does that mean they're bad to discuss? If we limited ourselves to only finished products here, there's not a lot to talk about.
If everyone on Wikipedia discussed what their favorite part about Nicollet mall, or what Minneapolis city council should do on the Minneapolis page rather than being corrected to facts it wouldn't be a very good resource for anyone. This site strives to be a good resource about projects happening in msp, not a rumor mill. While most rumors are based on fact they aren't necessarily something people should be using to trump the latest statement from the owner of the property (who's project may or may not change from that statement, but is the most reliable and recent source of information).

EOst
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby EOst » September 30th, 2014, 4:26 pm

twincitizen wrote:For the record, I specifically said that the Lord & Taylor thing sounded rumor-ish:
A. Because the media hasn't caught a whiff of it
B. Because there are members of said media posting in this thread

I absolutely did not call anyone a liar or intentionally hurt anyone's feely-feels.
It just feels weird to me that all of these plans are so hush-hush that they could never be revealed to the media, even anonymously, but the people behind them are perfectly fine leaking them semi-anonymously to public internet forums.

grant1simons2
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby grant1simons2 » September 30th, 2014, 4:30 pm

They're fine leaking tidbits, the state of our media can't handle things sometimes. You never know, the "5 eyewitness news investigation team" may be put on the case

holmstar
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby holmstar » September 30th, 2014, 4:36 pm

Nathan wrote:If everyone on Wikipedia discussed what their favorite part about Nicollet mall, or what Minneapolis city council should do on the Minneapolis page rather than being corrected to facts it wouldn't be a very good resource for anyone. This site strives to be a good resource about projects happening in msp, not a rumor mill. While most rumors are based on fact they aren't necessarily something people should be using to trump the latest statement from the owner of the property (who's project may or may not change from that statement, but is the most reliable and recent source of information).
This is a forum, not a wiki. It represents the interests of the people that use it and whatever information they care to share. If you want to start wikiUrbanMSP.org and enforce strict editing rules then you're free to do so. There's no reason that rumors cannot coexist with fact / official announcements on a forum.

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Nick
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby Nick » September 30th, 2014, 4:37 pm

lol thx 4 paying for hosting tho

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Nathan
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby Nathan » September 30th, 2014, 5:03 pm

holmstar wrote:
Nathan wrote:If everyone on Wikipedia discussed what their favorite part about Nicollet mall, or what Minneapolis city council should do on the Minneapolis page rather than being corrected to facts it wouldn't be a very good resource for anyone. This site strives to be a good resource about projects happening in msp, not a rumor mill. While most rumors are based on fact they aren't necessarily something people should be using to trump the latest statement from the owner of the property (who's project may or may not change from that statement, but is the most reliable and recent source of information).
This is a forum, not a wiki. It represents the interests of the people that use it and whatever information they care to share. If you want to start wikiUrbanMSP.org and enforce strict editing rules then you're free to do so. There's no reason that rumors cannot coexist with fact / official announcements on a forum.
Well a moderated forum with a bit of a mission statement then. You'd have to wonder why the people spreading inside "facts" are upset at all if we're all equally allowed to rebuke and state our own opinion about their rumor without any validation or credit given. There is a whole forum here for Rumors. Right now opus' last statement is the closest thing we have to fact on this block. The behind the scenes he said she said (from a company unaffiliated with Opus) is more than appropriate in the correct forum. But when myself and the general public are trying to get actual updates on this project 8 people posting different updates from one (probably awesome and well connected) woman from skyscraperity, it gets really muddy. Do I want to come on here one day and see a link to a strib article announcing opus proposing a Foster and Partners Supertall? SURE DO! But is this thread the appropriate place to daydream about it or talk about what a group of investors want who Opus doesn't really want to work with necessarily? No.

Wedgeguy
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby Wedgeguy » September 30th, 2014, 6:26 pm

David Greene wrote:
Wedgeguy wrote:Entrances to any tower facing Nicollet can be either on 3rd or 4th.
Why? Traditionally we built buildings with retail and office/housing and the entrances to the latter were right next to the entrances to the former. We want to encourage activity on the Mall.[/quote]


Part of the reason, you have a lobby that no one can drive up to. Like Nicollet, 5th does not allow you to drive up to the front door of the building. You have to drive down the alley and under the parking ramp to drop and pick up tenants. A good 1/3rd of the retail frontage is taken up by a large lobby that really is a walk thru hallway to elevators and the entrance to the 30 feet long skyway entry which is locked at street level. You can get out but you can't get in. I know as I tried to enter thru there today. Why are we talking retail mall if you are wasting real estate on a lobby that people would have to get out on 3rd and 4th to get to. Retail is what will bring people up the mail. Not doors to apartment buildings and skyways. The only Ka-Ching $$$ that is heard thru those door is into the developers pocket and not retailer pockets..

Take a good walk around the Nic and you will see so many short comings. Poor design layout, a 5th street mess, but I'll give them a pass there as I doubt they were planning a LRT station blocking access to part of there street sidewalk, the design was a series of compromises due to it's location on the Mall and in front of an LRT station. What I had hoped would be a great street level is far from it.

uptowncarag

Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby uptowncarag » September 30th, 2014, 8:00 pm

m b p wrote:
Nathan wrote:
grant1simons2 wrote:I'm not believing any of it until I actually see an official proposal. Like I said previously, it could go back up to 50-60 stories in a week and we wouldn't even know it. People who have information were actually surprised that the 2 30 story plans hit the press because that still wasn't settled on.
what does that say about people in the know? it's all rumor until plans hit the city's desk and even then it might not be successful.

I'm going to start a rumor that they are building a stairway to Heaven. Guess what. There are no real plans for them to build a stairway to heaven. No architect is actively working on that. Nobody is actively gathering money to build a stairway to Heaven. That is an example of a complete rumor.

Now lets look at what's happening at the Ritz Block. People are privately gathering money. An architect was hired, came up with a plan, and was paid. One of the planned towers for the block was to be 710 ft... one was to be 1050 ft. Opus appears to be passing on those plans. Those are all facts (not rumors).

I can understand why people, who shared these facts with us, are upset that people are now calling them rumor spreaders. If I was Avian, I'd be thinking that I would never share insider information again... because if it doesn't come into exact fruition, I'll be called a liar and accused of spreading rumors.
Wasn't this the site of IDS 2? There were 2 towers with a bridge in between. Maybe early 80's.

m b p
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby m b p » September 30th, 2014, 8:50 pm

Nathan wrote:
holmstar wrote:
Nathan wrote:If everyone on Wikipedia discussed what their favorite part about Nicollet mall, or what Minneapolis city council should do on the Minneapolis page rather than being corrected to facts it wouldn't be a very good resource for anyone. This site strives to be a good resource about projects happening in msp, not a rumor mill. While most rumors are based on fact they aren't necessarily something people should be using to trump the latest statement from the owner of the property (who's project may or may not change from that statement, but is the most reliable and recent source of information).
This is a forum, not a wiki. It represents the interests of the people that use it and whatever information they care to share. If you want to start wikiUrbanMSP.org and enforce strict editing rules then you're free to do so. There's no reason that rumors cannot coexist with fact / official announcements on a forum.
Well a moderated forum with a bit of a mission statement then. You'd have to wonder why the people spreading inside "facts" are upset at all if we're all equally allowed to rebuke and state our own opinion about their rumor without any validation or credit given. There is a whole forum here for Rumors. Right now opus' last statement is the closest thing we have to fact on this block. The behind the scenes he said she said (from a company unaffiliated with Opus) is more than appropriate in the correct forum. But when myself and the general public are trying to get actual updates on this project 8 people posting different updates from one (probably awesome and well connected) woman from skyscraperity, it gets really muddy. Do I want to come on here one day and see a link to a strib article announcing opus proposing a Foster and Partners Supertall? SURE DO! But is this thread the appropriate place to daydream about it or talk about what a group of investors want who Opus doesn't really want to work with necessarily? No.
OK. we'll only talk about stuff that makes in the STrib from now on.

I would think this, the "Opus Ritz Block Development" thread would be the perfect place to discuss what a private firm proposed, to Opus, to redevelop the Ritz Block.

Also, I would hope that people are capable of realizing that opus has plans of their own... and it looks like they went with their own plans. This is where the problem lies. People seem incapable of understanding that there are probably a dozen concepts that opus has for this site... and a private investment firm proposed another (to opus). We still have no idea what they are going to do here. However, it looks like they rejected the private firm and will do it alone. That's not getting too muddy is it?

It's a multifaceted story... with every side of the story having extreme relevance to the redevelopment of this block. If people are incapable of sorting this out properly, in their head, that's on them. This is a forum... Where things are supposed to be discussed... Not a news story, where only public and current facts are to be presented to a generally blind public.

*EDIT... and we've all been moved to the rumors thread. Why even have a thread entitled Opus Ritz Block Development... if we're not allowed to discuss what Opus might be doing at the Ritz Block. I'm very much beginning to understand people's frustration with how things work over here.
Last edited by m b p on September 30th, 2014, 9:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Minneboy
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby Minneboy » September 30th, 2014, 8:54 pm

Wasn't this the site of IDS 2? There were 2 towers with a bridge in between. Maybe early 80's.


yes

Wedgeguy
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby Wedgeguy » October 1st, 2014, 9:00 am

.

*EDIT... and we've all been moved to the rumors thread. Why even have a thread entitled Opus Ritz Block Development... if we're not allowed to discuss what Opus might be doing at the Ritz Block. I'm very much beginning to understand people's frustration with how things work over here.[/quote]

I've seen several names that are missing these days when I go back to see if I can find something in an earlier part of a thread. Part of this forum I thought was to discuss potential projects, uses for various area. Funny how most projects start out as rumours, some just pop out of thin air like the 4 Marq that was on no ones screen, and some take years to get to fruition like the last corner of Portland/Franklin. It is sad when we can't let others know information when most who do tell us that it is a possible outcome. Not the ACTUAL outcome of a project. It gives us a chance to voice in the pluses and negatives of proposals before they get too far along. We will now never know if there are any rumours/proposals to fill the several empty blocks on Hennepin. I see where people get frustrated with this site. But I also see where people get frustrated with ideas that have little background,which is more a fantasy than rumour. If something is said to be a rumour , then that is how it should be perceived as such until it is proven true or false. This is a "what if" site. As a majority of what is in this site is peoples personal wishes and not what is really happening in reality. That is my 5 cents, (inflation).

I guess that the rumour thread will become on of the largest thread as any project that is not in the strib will be put in here for us to sort thru.

David Greene
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby David Greene » October 1st, 2014, 9:21 am

Wedgeguy wrote:.
m b p wrote:EDIT... and we've all been moved to the rumors thread. Why even have a thread entitled Opus Ritz Block Development... if we're not allowed to discuss what Opus might be doing at the Ritz Block. I'm very much beginning to understand people's frustration with how things work over here.
It is sad when we can't let others know information when most who do tell us that it is a possible outcome.
We have a rumors thread. That is the appropriate place for such discussion. I like that I can go to other threads and be reasonably sure what I'm reading is accurate. I like rumors as much as the next person but keeping them in the rumors thread gives the proper context.

If there is an extended discussion on rumors such as happened with the Ritz block, we can start a new, site-specific rumor thread.

Absolutely no one is preventing anyone from posting rumors. It's amazing to me how thin-skinned some people are and I'm usually the first to point out when the discussion has turned nasty.

mullen
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby mullen » October 1st, 2014, 10:48 am

Minneboy wrote:Wasn't this the site of IDS 2? There were 2 towers with a bridge in between. Maybe early 80's.


yes
yes i remember that was going to be the building to eclipse the IDS. i'm glad this block will finally be developed. Opus sat on these north nicollet blocks for decades.

xandrex
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby xandrex » October 1st, 2014, 11:03 am

grant1simons2 wrote:They're fine leaking tidbits, the state of our media can't handle things sometimes. You never know, the "5 eyewitness news investigation team" may be put on the case
Oh, trust me, the media is already scouring this website and reading each and every one of the rumors posted on here.

Wedgeguy
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby Wedgeguy » October 1st, 2014, 12:47 pm

xandrex wrote:
grant1simons2 wrote:They're fine leaking tidbits, the state of our media can't handle things sometimes. You never know, the "5 eyewitness news investigation team" may be put on the case
Oh, trust me, the media is already scouring this website and reading each and every one of the rumors posted on here.
If the media looks to us as an authority of what is going on then they really fall very short of true journalistic skills. I like to think that they see a rumor here and go to the proper project manager and ask for some clarification. I'd think most time if it was true then they would have a no comment language and if false would deny it up front.

I happen to find the Journal to have better real estate coverage of what is going on than the Strib.

xandrex
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Re: Opus Ritz Block Development

Postby xandrex » October 1st, 2014, 1:35 pm

Wedgeguy wrote:
xandrex wrote:
grant1simons2 wrote:They're fine leaking tidbits, the state of our media can't handle things sometimes. You never know, the "5 eyewitness news investigation team" may be put on the case
Oh, trust me, the media is already scouring this website and reading each and every one of the rumors posted on here.
If the media looks to us as an authority of what is going on then they really fall very short of true journalistic skills. I like to think that they see a rumor here and go to the proper project manager and ask for some clarification. I'd think most time if it was true then they would have a no comment language and if false would deny it up front.

I happen to find the Journal to have better real estate coverage of what is going on than the Strib.
I don't think you understand quite how the media works. Journalists use places like this to source material (which is what I was suggesting), not as a voice. Unless your media outlet covers a single subject pretty much constantly (and I struggle to think of one), it's much more effective to have dozens of interested parties (in this case, users on forums like this), do the digging for government documents, list rumors they've heard (often that they can corroborate with their own industry insider contacts), and create the stories to report on. With more to do and fewer people to do it, the media doesn't really have the time to sniff out every story and spend hours looking through planning docs to see if there's something.

No editor worth their salt would okay attribution to an online forum and someone saying "No comment."


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