Why is St Paul so Sleepy?

[Minneapolisite]

While St Paul has lots of healthy areas I just find it bizarre that it's so sedate, although part of the reason I head over there every now and then is for a change of scenery and I because I am all but guaranteed some tranquility there. Coming from Ohio and having spent time in Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Columbus where I lived, I'm just surprised at how much more bustling parts of those cities are in comparison to any neighborhood/district in St Paul whether it's the Short North in Columbus, Northside in Cincinnati, or Ohio City in Cleveland. So what's the deal with St Paul?

[FISHMANPET]

Well, suburbs are generally like that.

*dodges thrown fruit*

[HoratioRincewind]

Well, suburbs are generally like that.

Quoted for truth.

[Minneapolisite]

Ha! Alright then: thread closed!

[mulad]

Minneapolis has gained some notoriety for the fact that most of the downtown was razed back during the urban renewal era. At first glance, downtown Saint Paul seems to have escaped that, or at managed to get rebuilt a bit more quickly (even if a lot of the newer structures are extremely auto-oriented). But there's a huge donut area encircling downtown Saint Paul that was decimated because of flooding, urban renewal, highway construction, and the expansion of the State Capitol grounds, so there isn't really an equivalent of Minneapolis's St. Anthony neighborhood, Elliot Park, Stevens Square, or Loring Park anymore.

You have to look in the right places in Saint Paul. University Avenue, Grand Avenue, some segments of Selby. Pieces of West & East 7th Street. Highland Park along Ford Parkway and Cleveland Ave. Some chunks of Snelling Ave as well as Rice Street and Payne Avenue.

But I think there's also been a reluctant acceptance of the fact that Minneapolis is the center of the region. There are plenty of city residents who like that Saint Paul is quieter -- and they can NIMBY it up with the best of them.

[Wedgeguy]

I agree, St. PAul is the better side of the River!! IF I could I'd love to live in Lower Town. That neighborhood is great and I love Mears Park. MPLS has nothing like it. St. PAul is a civic city so there are fewer private businesses, where the state is a major business. I'm looking forward to see how St. PAul changes when the LTR is completed. I see increases in housing and offices as well.

[Nathan]

I think It's hard to compare the two in whole, you can say minneapolis has nothing like Mears Park, and no, not in Downtown, but it does have Minnehaha Parkway and the lakes... I think DT STP is more sleepy than mpls because, though mpls is disconnected from it's residential neighborhoods, STP is severly severed from it's residents. SEVERELY. To the south: The river, wider than in Mpls and lots of industry on the south shore. To the East: Massive interchanges, rail corridors, nature conservatory. To the North: Interstate and Capitol Grounds. To the East: Cathedral Hill. There is essentially a half mile moat of NO residents. (and not the friendliest connection to and fro.

[twincitizen]

It's all true. Besides being walled off by the river, railroad, and freeways, downtown Saint Paul is also ringed/blocked by huge public and quasi-public entities including the Xcel, Science Museum, History Center, Cathedral, hospitals, and soon the Saints stadium on the east end. While those things are amenities/draws for the City, super-sized buildings like that typically do not transition well into residential neighborhoods due to being surrounded by massive parking craters. The only neighborhood that isn't totally walled off from downtown is the West 7th corridor, and that already has it's own little dining & shopping node at 7th & Kellogg with pretty abundant free/easy parking. There's no real reason for those folks to head further into downtown if they don't have to. I do think that area around West 7th does represent the City's biggest opportunity to grow the downtown-adjacent population.

Developing the Sears site will help a little, but even that is cut off from downtown by highways, the History Center, and the Capitol lawn.

[Minneapolisite]

You have to look in the right places in Saint Paul. University Avenue, Grand Avenue, some segments of Selby. Pieces of West & East 7th Street. Highland Park along Ford Parkway and Cleveland Ave. Some chunks of Snelling Ave as well as Rice Street and Payne Avenue.

I've been to University, Selby,W 7th and Highland Park. Notice that all of the best examples of urbanism outside of Downtown are described as "segments" and "chunks". I think being hard-pressed to find even a few consectucive urban commercial blocks in St Paul has something to do with it being sleepy. University should be the city's premier urban strip for several blocks as should W 7th be a close 2nd, but instead you're lucky to find two intact commercial blocks facing one another: take the area around Snelling which is good on the north side (checked out Turf Club for the 1st tim and liked it), but across the street there's a big strip mall and head a block or two east or west and you'll find parking lots soon enough. Don't get me wrong, I like these little pockets, but when it seems that even Downtown Hopkins can match your best, densest urban corridors I feel like there should be more of those little pockets to make up for it and they could be a bit more quirky. Even Merion Village in Columbus, which is a sleepy residential area that only has a handful of spots worth going to throughout the neighborhood, yet can claim a vegan live music joint, a gay pub, and a bar that serves fried sauerkraut balls.

[web]

Grand Ave is somewhat like that

[stp1980]

I live in St. Paul and I love St. Paul, but I do have to agree with what you are saying, it is a sleepy little 'burgh.
Reason #1, We NIMBY like no other NIMBYs can (with the possible exception of Linden Hills)! If you are loud enough, the city council will grant you any three wishes no matter how absurd or even if it is not in the interest of the city. Just a sampling, (No Cupcake, Height limits on Grand Ave, people fighting to save vacant lots on major streets, Frogtown height limit on the Green Line, a lackluster business district downtown)

Reason #2, Downtown is cut off from the rest of the city, it is an island of concrete (with too many parking lots to match) no neighborhoods flow into it, (although it is getting better, there are some parks and more people there than ever before)

Reason #3, The largest and most dynamic business based here is EcoLab. Now, big companies are not the only thing to economic development, but there needs to be a critical mass of large, medium, small and startup employers to make it a bit more dynamic. Part of this may be state has a large number of employees here, but St. Paul, lacks the ooomph of many other similar sized cities.

I live here for the quality of life and the things that make St. Paul unique, although I wish the city was a little more open to risk and trying to be more dynamic. I think there is a balance to be struck, but right now there is not.

[Tcmetro]

There are a number of commercial streets, like Rice, Payne, Arcade, Selby, etc, however, they mainly cater to the local neighborhood residents, and the businesses in those corridors aren't regional attractions. They have a similar form as Lake, Nicollet, Central, Lyndale, W Broadway, but lack the restaurants and shops that attract people to Minneapolis' streets.

Downtown St Paul is quite disconnected. Government buildings, industrial lands, hills, freeways all disconnect the city from the outlying neighborhoods. Add in the tracks that divide the city on the north end, and the low density neighborhoods prevalent on the far east side make the city feel poorly connected. Downtown St. Paul also has a core marred by urban renewal. Almost all of the office towers lack good street access. There are some nice residential areas (Lowertown), but the newer residential towers have poor street frontages. On nights and weekends, downtown feels like the only thing it has to offer is a place to change buses.

Additionally, the bus service is quite poor. Most lines run every 30 or 60 minutes. There are a few frequent lines (16, 21, 54, 64, 74, 84) but there are large swaths of the city with poor service. When the Green Line opens, and some buses start running more frequently, perhaps more people will begin to use the bus.

[John]

Tcmetro, Your analysis of St Paul is very insightful with good observations. Getting around without a car is more difficult than in Minneapolis. There definitely needs to be improvement in the downtown to make it more dynamic. But I would add that despite St Paul's sedateness and lackluster nightlife, it's still one of the finest cities in the country with some of the loveliest and best preserved neighborhoods anywhere. And I'm sure it ranks very high in quality of life compared to other cities.

I've always liked the contrast between sleepy St Paul and the more boisterous energy of Minneapolis. Having two relatively large cities with such distinct characters (joined together as twins) is one of the attributes that makes our urban area so unique.

[mattaudio]

So, one of the glaring problems is the separation of periphery neighborhoods to the CBD, much moreso than Minneapolis. What about streetcar lines connecting close-in neighborhoods to Downtown? Would any sorts of loops work? Or just short lines down 7th, Grand, Rice, etc?

[mulad]

I updated the Saint Paul streetcar study thread with a current map of potential lines. I'm not a big fan of loops, though are you talking one-way or two-way? The only place I'd really suggest a loop route would be along West 7th, Smith Ave (High Bridge), George Street, and either Wabasha or Robert Street (though that's a tricky turn for a streetcar).