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IllogicalJake
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Re: Rumors!

Postby IllogicalJake » January 29th, 2015, 9:37 am

Well, war crimes are despicable, anything on an Internet forum might be a level or two below that. I told him in a private message to not post his entire stream of consciousness on the forum.
Oy, this is gonna be a long one...

Like when I was mixed up in the rumors situation, you sent me this:
"You're missing at least a few years of context here, if not at least a decade."

Great. When I wanted some context? No response. Multiple times. Very helpful. You showed off that you know the situation more than me without any interest in actually filling me in.

Your message to Grant took the same attitude. You know more than him, you're smarter than him, so he should listen to you. Nothing encouraging, nothing happy that he's been taking a significant amount of time out of his life to contribute to this forum that you've been curating for years.

That doesn't work with everyone, Nick.

And I have several friends on my messenger list that I get along well with because we all have felt outcast by the leader of the most active MSP-related board, filled with the most professionals and career connections. The admin of the group, the person most connected to the city, tells you "Stop it."

I know in your head this is just you giving advice, trying to curate a community, but you do realize you hurt and frustrate people and make them wonder why they're even involved? Including me multiple times? I can't say that for any other moderator on this forum, or SSC.

Yeah, SSC has light moderation. That's what attracts people to there, because there's not a moderator that tells them they're doing it wrong. Of course a bad side comes with that.

And I know with Grant you were not willing to talk more to him. Or help him get involved. It was just a "I'm smarter than you, so listen to me because I'm right." I'm sure that wasn't what you were intending, but it's how it's interpreted.

And your posts here reflect that same attitude. You're above everyone else because you're not caught up in the frenzy. Or you're smarter. Or have more important things going on than "the internet." You call this "the internet" as if nobody should be bothering with anything here, when really "the internet" is the core of this urban dev community. It's important.

And I think that's a big part what's driven this stupid-ass separation in community between SSC and Urban. No other urban community I've been a part of has been like this, none.

And I really don't know you, like I said, I have no hard feelings. I try to avoid mentioning it head-on because, screw it, I have no interest in fighting anyone or telling them they're doing their job wrong. But every person I know that avoids this website cites "Nick" as a big reason. Every single one that I have talked to, without exaggeration.

I get it, you "cultivate" this community by pushing away the people who rub you the wrong away.

You're one person on this board, sure, but you're a leader of it. When you tell people to shut up, understand that it's taken much differently than if another casual member says it.

end rant.

EDIT
Wow my messages blew up. Here's to show that I'm not the only one with this thought, and hopefully it can help us all understand.

"100% agree with your take on why people don't post on Urban as much any more. That is exactly why I have limited my activity. To belittle other posters because their view is slightly different is just childish."

"Also, about Nick: I pretty much agree with what you're saying. His PM was pretty harsh and it should've been handled much better."

"Nick comes off as an arrogant prick in nearly every post of his. Funny thing is, I remember him from the old Minnescraper days when he was Grant's age. And he was the same way as Grant!"

"Wow, great post over at Urban. Needed to be said. [...] You were so calm and polite with your assessment; nice work."

"I can't figure out why Nick has such a cavalier attitude towards fellow bloggers on his website. It's not a pretty picture. I think he feels it's hip, but it actually makes him look like a uber asshole"
Last edited by IllogicalJake on January 29th, 2015, 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rumors!

Postby Tyler » January 29th, 2015, 11:02 am

Honestly Jake -- if people are avoiding this site because of Nick it's 100% on them.
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IllogicalJake
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Re: Rumors!

Postby IllogicalJake » January 29th, 2015, 11:07 am

Honestly Jake -- if people are avoiding this site because of Nick it's 100% on them.
Well yeah, if anyone avoids this site at all it's on them.

But Nick posted that he's curating this board to have the best people on it, and touting nasa35 as a success story, and I'm arguing the effectiveness of that.

To just say "It's on them, no need for improvement at all" isn't worthwhile, though, is it? Even if nothing results, it's worthwhile to discuss the things that make people think this community is a hostile environment.

Like I said, random member of the group says you're annoying, stick around because it's just one idiot. Leader of the group says you're annoying, why would you stick around at the point?
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Re: Rumors!

Postby David Greene » January 29th, 2015, 11:45 am

Well, war crimes are despicable, anything on an Internet forum might be a level or two below that. I told him in a private message to not post his entire stream of consciousness on the forum, because if you remember, he did that for about two months. For what it's worth (and I said this in the message) I remember being 17 (and 14!) on an Internet forum.
Think about how patronizing that sounded to Grant. I had absolutely no problem with Grant's posts. I loved the energy! I do wish he would come back. Perhaps you can reach out to him.

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Re: Rumors!

Postby David Greene » January 29th, 2015, 11:52 am

Wow my messages blew up. Here's to show that I'm not the only one with this thought, and hopefully it can help us all understand.
Here's one more.

Spot. On.

Nick, please listen to what people are saying. I know you think your jokes are witty and clever but they can be quite hurtful. Not engaging those trying to help you makes it worse. I sent you a PM a few months ago asking about a comment you made directed toward me and I never heard a peep. Now, I shrugged it off as immaturity but other's haven't grown as calloused a skin as I have.

Banning nasa was the right thing to do because you're right, he doesn't have the ability to handle criticism. Not responding to Grant asking for more information is unacceptable.

We're trying to help, we really are.
Last edited by David Greene on January 29th, 2015, 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rumors!

Postby David Greene » January 29th, 2015, 11:55 am

Honestly Jake -- if people are avoiding this site because of Nick it's 100% on them.
No, not really. For better or worse, Nick is seen as the face of this site. He is in fact setting a culture here and it's not always a healthy one. I appreciate Nicks more informative and fun posts a lot. But the snark and belittling of people gets old real fast. I totally understand people deciding they don't want to deal with it. But to claim there isn't a problem here displays the same blindness as the Consortium die-hards.

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Re: Rumors!

Postby IllogicalJake » January 29th, 2015, 12:01 pm

And I'm not trying to say Nick is the problem, but that attitude from the most recognized member leads to others that have no problem sending their feelings toward one-another in a PM.

We act like anyone that thinks Nick could be behind this is some stupid idiot with a grudge. But what they see is that Nick is constantly enjoying the fact that they're being hoaxed, flat out laughing at them, constantly bragging that he knew it was a hoax all along while not willing to share why until it all falls out. Why? We're not in any competition with SSC, this should be one Minneapolis urban community. I seriously don't get it. Why be so petty?

Yeah, I spent probably 3-4 hours of my day either researching, working, or commenting on the Minneapolis urban community. Why? Because it interests me and it's my hobby, I follow projects in a lot of cities. But more importantly, I want to live here my whole life and I love being a part of the change I want to see. I want to be active and involved.

That 3-4 hours adds up in my life pretty quickly. Remember that when you write off something as just "the internet" and write off all of the time I've dedicated to this site, as if I've contributed nothing. Many of us are dedicating our actual time and effort to improving this city, and it sucks to have that belittled because "internet." It's the most immature argument I've seen here.

This board, when I joined, made me question whether I enjoy being involve on this stuff. And I think that sucks, and now that I've gotten over it I don't want other young, enthusiastic people turned away from this city's development community for the same reason.
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Lancestar2

Re: Rumors!

Postby Lancestar2 » January 29th, 2015, 12:07 pm

Great post Jake,

I'd also say that's why I mostly stopped posting here though I might be one of the "success" stories considering I don't think I brought to much value for the direction this site intended. Also I seriously don't think he is doing it without being aware of how his message is being received. It is my understanding he is trying to keep this site VERY formal and focused very limited smiles icons, non- development pictures and off topic discussion. In doing so you can better hope to be taken more serious as a community to attract developers to be a part of the conversation.

Although SSC is much more relax and inviting to all people regardless of their education of the topic. You can either go online to Urban and type of more formal postings and partake in the discussion, or visit SSC and communicate in a very relaxed setting. I don't think Nick ever considered many of the people he may consider as having "some valuable posting" would not like the blunt encouragements of keeping the site formal.

Also in regards to issues with with belittling it might be wise to consider adding a specialized mod to smooth conflicts, and to encourage members to continue posting in a very formal method. Adding a few "Anything goes" threads where members could go to "shoot the breeze" may also help members develop relationships so when they feel insulted conversations the better know other members so they don't take it as much as personal insult. Heck right now there seems to be very limited opportunities besides the "happy our" for members to shoot the breeze and to get to know others. Also if members start out new in the community and feel insulted, and disrespected I doubt they would be encouraged to attend a HH event. I'm sure your events would prove that or disprove that. I wish you would address such issues, a good entrepreneur should know when they need to utilize others skills for the greater good. While you may be very educated and informed on urban events in the twin cities you are extremely poorly skilled in dealing with others online and your site would greatly benefit by adding a new mod to be the "friendly face" of your forum site while you sit back and focus more attention on new adventures.

Surly somebody of your superior status and extensive knowledge wouldn't want to waste so much time and effort being a online forum moderator in your late 20's and beyond that! I remember when Shawn was active he was pretty friendly and social. Would love to hear your intentions for the future of the site. Did you sell or just partner it to Streets.mn perhaps they have resources such as an friendly admin that could be trained to the level of expertise you desire to be the culler and friendly face to develop and maintain this site.

Just my 2 cents,

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Re: Rumors!

Postby FISHMANPET » January 29th, 2015, 12:14 pm

There's no secret smoking gun that we knew about in the past that made us think it was a hoax. There were just a bunch of us that looked at the situation and said "that makes no sense" and went on with our lives. People asking for our secret proof are missing the point. It never made sense to us. There's no secret to lord over you. I'm sorry you were tricked and weren't able to see it initially, but a lot of us were.

And Nick says this is just the internet but that doesn't mean we're doing nothing but sitting in our parents basements posting mean things on the internet about buildings. We're attending meetings, we're talking with city leaders, we're testifying at hearings, etc etc.

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Re: Rumors!

Postby FISHMANPET » January 29th, 2015, 12:18 pm

Nick is a very serious man, which is why he writes very serious articles for streets.mn like Transportation Emojis: An Objective Analysis

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Re: Rumors!

Postby IllogicalJake » January 29th, 2015, 12:28 pm

Nick is a very serious man, which is why he writes very serious articles for streets.mn like Transportation Emojis: An Objective Analysis
I never said he was a bad guy who can't joke. Nick and I (I'm guessing) actually have a similar sense of humor. I've read probably all of his streets.mn posts and tend to agree with him a lot. It's the leadership role that I think isn't handled well. I think Nick could do better in that role. I don't dislike him at all, I don't even really know him. But I know the interactions I have had and the interactions others have had in regards to this forum.

And the first 40 pages of this thread sure definitely don't match "a bunch of us that looked at the situation and said 'that makes no sense' and went on with our lives."
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Re: Rumors!

Postby MNdible » January 29th, 2015, 12:32 pm

I also sent a PM to Grant – he probably left because he was being bombarded with PMs. My point (and I hope this was clearly communicated) was that while his enthusiasm is commendable (and sometimes contagious), he should realize that he’s going to benefit from some seasoning and more judicious posting. Unfortunately, it seems like the hoaxsters pushed him in just the opposite direction. Reading through some of Grant’s posts on SSC, when he thought he was in on the super-secrets and running the show, is truly painful.

I’ve always advocated for a more laissez faire attitude on this site, in terms of just letting annoying posts and posters lie rather than getting worked up about them. I was even one of the last couple of people standing up for Nasa’s right to make unhelpful and provocative posts.

That said, it’s not my site. Nick runs the thing, and if his vision is for a more tightly curated site, so be it. It is the internet, and we’re all grown-ups, and people really need to be able to deal with bruised feelings. I’ve had my verbal run ins with most everybody on the site, and some posters still get under my skin even though I try not to let them. But if I can’t deal with that, I probably shouldn’t be on an internet forum.

I'm not hung up about building an online community of Urban love. I'm looking for a rough and tumble free exchange of ideas, with people who can give as good as they get. The thing that worries me about UrbanMSP isn't that Nick is culling out people whose posts are poorly written or uninformed -- it's that the broader group of frequent posters push out smart posters who come at the issues from a different perspective.

In summary: SUCK IT UP.

EDIT:

Just to be clear, that post wasn't directed at you, Jake. Your response came in while I was typing.

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Re: Rumors!

Postby IllogicalJake » January 29th, 2015, 12:41 pm

It is the internet, and we’re all grown-ups, and people really need to be able to deal with bruised feelings. I’ve had my verbal run ins with most everybody on the site, and some posters still get under my skin even though I try not to let them. But if I can’t deal with that, I probably shouldn’t be on an internet forum.

[...]

In summary: SUCK IT UP.
But that's not how leadership works. That's not how any of this works.

This "people need thicker skin" is pure bullshit that people say to make themselves feel better, it always is, here or anywhere,

In communication, crafting the message is on you. It is your goal to communicate an idea to your audience. You have to adapt to your audience, whether it's a 5 year old or professional businessman. If you have no interest in that, don't be in a position of leadership. A group of people only falls apart when it has to adapt to its leader rather than the leader adapting to it.

If the other person doesn't understand your message or takes it the wrong way, it's on you, not them. It's a cop-out to say "I tried to explain but they won't listen." There are legit times when the other party won't listen, sure, but the burden of clarification is on you, not them. Because most of the people I know have been genuinely interested in talking to Nick more to learn more, only to be ignored. I mentioned wanting more context, David Greene himself mentioned ignored messages, also not a good leadership trait.

Just like the message I quoted in my original, long post. Some may read it as a joke. Some may read it as as insult. Since I was the audience and I perceived it as an insult, that's on Nick to clarify with me after I respond asking for it.

And I think we've all concluded that most of the problems people have with Nick is that his communications come off as abrasive and rude, when he doesn't necessarily mean them to be.
I'm not hung up about building an online community of Urban love.
You're misrepresenting what I'm saying. I'm not looking for a fantasy-land, simply a professional forum that doesn't make new people feel like shit for even getting involved. This is a clique-y high school environment at best through the efforts of "curation."
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Re: Rumors!

Postby Tyler » January 29th, 2015, 12:45 pm

Honestly Jake -- if people are avoiding this site because of Nick it's 100% on them.
No, not really. For better or worse, Nick is seen as the face of this site. He is in fact setting a culture here and it's not always a healthy one. I appreciate Nicks more informative and fun posts a lot. But the snark and belittling of people gets old real fast. I totally understand people deciding they don't want to deal with it. But to claim there isn't a problem here displays the same blindness as the Consortium die-hards.
See David, your knack for taking the "high ground" while being simultaneously condescending is way more annoying to me than Nick's "culture of snark". So different things rub people the wrong way. Like you said, if people can't deal with it they can leave. I'd say the general culture here is much more indicative of the real word than the nurturing, all-inclusive, gold star for everyone utopia you're hoping for.
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Re: Rumors!

Postby IllogicalJake » January 29th, 2015, 12:57 pm

See David, your knack for taking the "high ground" while being simultaneously condescending is way more annoying to me than Nick's "culture of snark". So different things rub people the wrong way. Like you said, if people can't deal with it they can leave. I'd say the general culture here is much more indicative of the real word than the nurturing, all-inclusive, gold star for everyone utopia you're hoping for.
Wow, so much misrepresentation of ideas here to make them sound more stupid.

"So different things rub people the wrong way." Of course. But it's not a leaders role to tell members that they rub him the wrong way, unless you're an employer. Things that rub Nick the wrong way get called out with little explanation, and the figurehead of the board makes it clear he doesn't like you. If it rubs Tyle the wrong way, so what? Do you not see the difference there?

"Like you said, if people can't deal with it they can leave." And what good is that? Somebody's opinions and knowledge are no longer worthy because they rubbed you the wrong way? Is that really productive? Don't we want MORE people who want to see change in the city, not LESS? Are so immature to not be able to see past that "rubbing" and still have a professional conversation?

"I'd say the general culture here is much more indicative of the real word than the nurturing, all-inclusive, gold star for everyone utopia you're hoping for."

Gold-star utopia? No.

A group of professionals that understand how to deal with someone who rubs them the wrong way? Yes.

Hint: The answer to handling someone that rubs you the wrong way isn't to make them want to leave.

Keep acting like I'm trying to dominate this board and make it a gold-star utopia (good grief,) when all I'm doing is posting my problems I've seen with the execution of this community. The inability to respond to points directly without misrepresenting the idea as some stupid fantasy, well, rubs me the wrong way. :D
Last edited by IllogicalJake on January 29th, 2015, 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Nathan
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Re: Rumors!

Postby Nathan » January 29th, 2015, 12:59 pm

Just so everyone is aware this is the "Rumors" Thread :lol:

*Snark*

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Re: Rumors!

Postby MNdible » January 29th, 2015, 1:09 pm

Nick isn't the president of the world. Leadership? This is a rinky-dink little internet forum that he runs. Full stop.

Some people think he's a prick. Maybe he is. I've never met him, and I've never been on the receiving end of a scolding from him.

I do know that I enjoy spending time on the site that he runs. If you don't, because you don't like Nick or whatever, I'd recommend moving on.

(That said, Jake, I think you've got a lot to add to the site and would enjoy it if you just ignored the internal squabbles, which I've mostly managed to do over lo these many years. It's worth noting that while there's all of this gnashing of teeth going on in this thread, the other threads seem to be working just fine.)

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Re: Rumors!

Postby IllogicalJake » January 29th, 2015, 1:11 pm

:D

Sorry, I'm huge into the art of debating. Don't just write me off as obsessed. I'm just eager to point out weak arguments and fallacies because a strong argument with good points is what pushes me (and others) to learn. Of course I know that's what bugs most people about me, and some people point it out in the rudest ways.

Yet when somebody approached me and gave me a quote of what I said and helped me understand how the other posters could see it as demeaning, I listened, I understood and it changed the way I go about things.

That's what I'm talking about here. The snark is fine but not when it replaces actual conversation, you know?
I do know that I enjoy spending time on the site that he runs. If you don't, because you don't like Nick or whatever, I'd recommend moving on.
I don't disagree, and many people have moved on. But since this is the most known forum for urban development in the Twin Cities, that often can mean people ending their involvement with city issues. The general audience who clicks over to this board likely doesn't even know about SSC. That's where I'm getting leadership from. There's none here and I think it could make a world of difference for the better to have some.

A lot of it is that I think this forum should hold itself to a higher standard, personally, now that it's under the streets.mn name, but I'm not trying to force that by any means. I just have my opinions on it. But I also don't see streets.mn authors sending one-liner smartass comments to their readers.
Last edited by IllogicalJake on January 29th, 2015, 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rumors!

Postby grant1simons2 » January 29th, 2015, 1:21 pm

I left because the snark here was too high. I actually didn't feel like the discussion EVER stayed on topic of what the title was. I was messaged by Nick multiple times yes, and every time I felt horrible about it and really felt unwanted. I'm enthusiastic because this is my future profession, and people should be happy and excited about their profession. Did I think June and the consortium were real? Yes. I did. Because it really wasn't all that rare for a developer to come and share information on SSC. Do I care now that they could be fakes and part of a big hoax? Yes. It really makes me upset. Not only because June would message me countless times, but because she was so nice to me, so kind and well, grandmother like the character she played. I'm still a bit confused about some of this stuff going on. That's all I'm going to say. I'd find it respectful for you not to mention my leaving or posting habits anymore. Thank you

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Re: Rumors!

Postby IllogicalJake » January 29th, 2015, 1:26 pm

Those feelings, real, not a hoax. Yet this image from a couple pages ago makes it seem like it's entertaining for Nick.
Image
Last edited by IllogicalJake on January 29th, 2015, 1:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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