Forum Etiquette

[Tyler]

Wow, so much misrepresentation of ideas here to make them sound more stupid.

I was responding directly to David and his ongoing patronizing comments.

But beyond that, you're not understanding my point (probably my fault). This forum is what it is and is run the way its run. Some people like it and some don't. Some enjoy the ribbing and the jokes and some don't. If people don't want to participate -- no problem -- but I don't understand the lobbying of Nick to turn this place into something else or "change the culture." Maybe not everyone thinks the culture needs changing.

[IllogicalJake]

Wow, so much misrepresentation of ideas here to make them sound more stupid.

I was responding directly to David and his ongoing patronizing comments.

But beyond that, you're not understanding my point (probably my fault). This forum is what it is and is run the way its run. Some people like it and some don't. Some enjoy the ribbing and the jokes and some don't. If people don't want to participate -- no problem -- but I don't understand the lobbying of Nick to turn this place into something else or "change the culture." Maybe not everyone thinks the culture needs changing.

And I don't think you're quite understanding me, which is also probably my fault with how caught up I get.

I'm not asking for any change to the site, really, but simply that one person who controls this website shouldn't be deciding who is and isn't wanted. It's okay if people rub each other wrong way, and people are of course more than welcome to leave. But why is the person in charge of the site encouraging people he deems annoying to leave?

Even if he doesn't mean to, I've shown that many people felt that attitude when receiving very critical messages from him about their posting style. That creates a hostile atmosphere and is a major part of why people don't like this site. I think that is preventable and fixable by simply Nick putting more thought into how he communicates to the members of his forum, because it's driving people away who are legitimately useful to this board and to this city.

And hey, I don't mind that you disagree, seriously. I really enjoy discussing it. It sounds like some would prefer this be more private, or at least more cultivated, and that seems like it'd be better then to not have this merged with streets.mn, then, which is constantly reaching out to more people for donations and involvement.

[Viktor Vaughn]

Well put MNdible. I think this is a key point.

I'm not hung up about building an online community of Urban love. I'm looking for a rough and tumble free exchange of ideas, with people who can give as good as they get.

I'm tired of people thinking all opinions have equal weight and merit. If you misrepresent the facts on this site, or your opinion is misguided in a demonstratable way, you're going to hear about it. I've often disagreed with MNdible, sometimes I've even been annoyed by his approach to debate, yet I've learned from arguing with him.

I think a lot of people really thrive on this rough-and-tumble debate and some are really offended by it. Some people just want to express their opinion and not be challenged about it. In an often-cited example of how this site sucks, someone mentioned his cast iron skillet was as clean as the day he got it. And then was offended when people brashly pointed out that he's doing it wrong. What's the point of cast iron when you clean off the seasoning? Some people think nobody should tell them how to clean their pan (because it's none of their damn business!), and some people will debate the merits of every last thing in the known universe (because that's how we learn). I think this is both a cultural and personality difference.

The cultural at SSC is to let whoever say whatever no matter how stupid or false. The culture at Urbanmsp is to argue about everything no matter how stupid or trivial. Take your pick. But don't pretend all is equal. There's a reason why hoaxsters were able to run roughshod over there but were shut down over here.

[IllogicalJake]

Well put MNdible. I think this is a key point.

I'm not hung up about building an online community of Urban love. I'm looking for a rough and tumble free exchange of ideas, with people who can give as good as they get.

I'm tired of people thinking all opinions have equal weight and merit. If you misrepresent the facts on this site, or your opinion is misguided in a demonstratable way, you're going to hear about it. I've often disagreed with MNdible, sometimes I've even been annoyed by his approach to debate, yet I've learned from arguing with him.

I'm confused, I never said opinions are of equal weight and merit? If you know me, that's the opposite of me. My comment is that we're driving away the people with actual smarts just because we don't like how they post. Not that people should be allowed to post false or misleading information.

At least you explained the process of why the seasoning is important. Hell, I learned from that conversation. That's a useful conversation. When we could've just PMed the guy and said "You do cooking wrong and your posts are annoying."

[Viktor Vaughn]

It's not a reaction to your comments, Jake. Just my take on the few posters who go stomping out of here.

[IllogicalJake]

It's not a reaction to your comments, Jake. Just my take on the few posters who go stomping out of here.

Got it. Sorry, I kinda latched on to this topic and took over. Like I said, debate...

[twincitizen]

I'd find it respectful for you not to mention my leaving or posting habits anymore. Thank you

I agree. The whole talking you in the 3rd person got pretty overboard here. That said, you were kind of a central character in both the SSC vs. urbanmsp squabble and the whole Texas_RE thing.

I know you asked us to stop, and I'll respect that (and ask others to as well) but if I could say just one thing first, as I too sent you a PM about posting habits:

No one asked you to stop posting completely or to leave. We asked you to slow down. When you first registered here, you were posting at a furious pace (top 3 users in terms of posts per day), and a lot of it was fluff/spam. It's pretty hard for a newer user to get away with such a thing, compared with someone who's been around for a while. Your posting (quality and quantity) has obviously improved significantly since then, both here and at SSC. Everyone wants you to be here dude, you were just posting way too damn much for someone who was brand new. It also seems that several of us inadvertently sent you PMs around the same time, which to you, probably felt like we were piling on, and that's unfortunate. In retrospect, we could have coordinated better and just had one person reach out to you. No hard feelings, ok?

[IllogicalJake]

I'd find it respectful for you not to mention my leaving or posting habits anymore. Thank you

I agree. The whole talking you in the 3rd person got pretty overboard here. That said, you were kind of a central character in both the SSC vs. urbanmsp squabble and the whole Texas_RE thing.

And my last word on the Grant stuff, I only brought him up so much because a) He knows more about this entire situation than any of us and he can answer many questions that we can't, and b) because he's the biggest example of someone who is insanely smart and active being driven away because of things that are insanely easy to fix with a little more communication.

Thanks all for entertaining my thoughts and criticisms, I by no means hate this site, I wouldn't be so invested if I did.

[FISHMANPET]

I think a lot of people really thrive on this rough-and-tumble debate and some are really offended by it. Some people just want to express their opinion and not be challenged about it. In an often-cited example of how this site sucks, someone mentioned his cast iron skillet was as clean as the day he got it. And then was offended when people brashly pointed out that he's doing it wrong. What's the point of cast iron when you clean off the seasoning? Some people think nobody should tell them how to clean their pan (because it's none of their damn business!), and some people will debate the merits of every last thing in the known universe (because that's how we learn). I think this is both a cultural and personality difference.

Hahaha I forgot all about that.

To be honest I don't see the point of all these private messages that people are sending. I read a lot of forum threads around the internet that I don't at all participate in. I'd be pretty mad if 95% of the conversation was happening in secret, especially when it comes to correcting factually incorrect things. And calling people out on their crap is part of the fun of a forum. I've been on the internet for like 20 years now, posting in forums since basically the beginning. We're not presenting our thesis and then accepting comments in a box in private afterward, we're having a lively public discussion. Part of that is putting yourself out there and knowing that someone could call you on your bullshit. And it's important to call people on their bullshit, because someone could be reading and they just see a wrong but unchallenged piece of information. It needs to be challenged, publicly. Yeah it means things get a little rowdy. But that's just what it is.

Maybe it's a lot of ego, because it's not just about being right, but it's also about showing other people you're right. But think of a group of friends talking. If someone says something wrong, what's more likely happen. Someone says "hey that's wrong" and then they all talk about it, or one person pulls another aside and says quietly "hey that's wrong" and then goes back to the group and leaves it like that. That's just how people interact with each other in a group.

And everybody should welcome the challenging of their ideas. If your idea is sound, it will stand up to criticism. If it is weak it will fall to criticism. And I don't think people should try and go around with weak ideas. Debate strengthens us all, not weakens us.

Is this why SSC says we're mean, because we challenge ideas?

[David Greene]

I also sent a PM to Grant – he probably left because he was being bombarded with PMs.

This is one of the reasons I tend to dislike PMs. If everyone was open about it we could have a productive conversation and not bombard people with repeated messages. When you're getting all the PMs I'm sure it does feel like you're being attacked.

That said, it’s not my site. Nick runs the thing, and if his vision is for a more tightly curated site, so be it.

I certainly appreciate the organization on the site and the tight focus of threads. It's why I post here a lot more than at SSC. I value a place where we can extended conversations on various topics. We have a place for more free-form discussion (Anything Goes). It's not the goal I have an issue with, it's the method.

It is the internet, and we’re all grown-ups, and people really need to be able to deal with bruised feelings.

"It's the internet" is a really poor excuse to be rude.

I'm not hung up about building an online community of Urban love. I'm looking for a rough and tumble free exchange of ideas, with people who can give as good as they get. The thing that worries me about UrbanMSP isn't that Nick is culling out people whose posts are poorly written or uninformed -- it's that the broader group of frequent posters push out smart posters who come at the issues from a different perspective.

Ideas can be freely exchanged respectfully, it does not have to be "rough and tumble." I think about when I first came here. I started posting because I was very active on SWLRT and wanted to provide some information that might inform and provide a different perspective than the dominant one. Boy, did I get blowback from that! Enough that I went away for almost a year before coming back and trying again. And if you look at my posts from when I came back, you can see the bruises. Since then I've got to know the wonderful people here and now I'm familiar enough that I'm not affected by rudeness. But I totally, totally understand people who are. It is a real thing.

If a post is poorly written or uninformed, gently correct grammar and provide information, ideally openly in the forum so others can benefit. We can all gain from learning to communicate better. If someone is repeatedly abusive, by all means give them a timeout, but that doesn't require one to be rude about it.

In summary: SUCK IT UP.

That's really the wrong attitude. HELP people understand what they're missing. Given them the context to know it's not personal. Don't just tell them to get over it.

[Snelbian]

Well put MNdible. I think this is a key point.
In an often-cited example of how this site sucks, someone mentioned his cast iron skillet was as clean as the day he got it.

That's the most offensive thing I've seen in this thread. I mean...that's borderline monstrous.

Anyway, I'm straddling the fence here. Is the moderation perfect? No. To be honest, I usually find Nick's posts useless since I don't share his humor (is that what that was?). On the other hand, the internet is not one endless Wild Wild West where thick skins are a requirement and offense should never be taken. I frequent 4chan (/n/ even has bike infrastructure discussions). I love 4chan. Not every forum should be 4chan.

[IllogicalJake]

I know these aren't in response to me, but who said arguing is bad? I'm just confused how it became the topic. I'm here because I love the debate-heavy atmosphere myself. Nobody I know personally said they're gone because people argue with them too much, which is what your post is assuming, Peter...

I mean it seems like we all assume that they can't handle arguments when Nick's comments of criticism and lack of responses are the universal thread that every person I know has mentioned. Yeah, I've been curious what the big rift between SSC and Urban is, and I've talked to a lot of people.

Just seems pointless to claim "People are leaving because they don't like that we argue with facts!" when there's not any evidence of that... Again it's misrepresenting the problem to make us feel more "right."

[FISHMANPET]

In an often-cited example of how this site sucks, someone mentioned his cast iron skillet was as clean as the day he got it.

That's the most offensive thing I've seen in this thread. I mean...that's borderline monstrous.

RIGHT?

[David Greene]

But that's not how leadership works. That's not how any of this works.

In communication, crafting the message is on you. It is your goal to communicate an idea to your audience. You have to adapt to your audience, whether it's a 5 year old or professional businessman. If you have no interest in that, don't be in a position of leadership. A group of people only falls apart when it has to adapt to its leader rather than the leader adapting to it.

If the other person doesn't understand your message or takes it the wrong way, it's on you, not them.

This is 100% right. Leadership means turning one's eye toward oneself and asking, "how can I do this better." Good leaders constantly do that. Good leaders make honest assessments of themselves, admit their faults and work to correct them. Good leaders always criticize themselves before criticizing others.

Just like the message I quoted in my original, long post. Some may read it as a joke. Some may read it as as insult. Since I was the audience and I perceived it as an insult, that's on Nick to clarify with me after I respond asking for it.

And I think we've all concluded that most of the problems people have with Nick is that his communications come off as abrasive and rude, when he doesn't necessarily mean them to be.

This is an important point. I've met Nick in person. I like him. I think he's a good guy and I appreciate a lot of his humor. I don't think he's intentionally being rude or superior at all. But it does often come off that way. This is simply a matter of listening to what people are saying, trying to look at things from their perspective and seeing how to change while remaining true to oneself.

One can in fact have strong opinions without being rude. We're all rude sometimes but the better sides of us intentionally try not to be.

[David Greene]

Honestly Jake -- if people are avoiding this site because of Nick it's 100% on them.

No, not really. For better or worse, Nick is seen as the face of this site. He is in fact setting a culture here and it's not always a healthy one. I appreciate Nicks more informative and fun posts a lot. But the snark and belittling of people gets old real fast. I totally understand people deciding they don't want to deal with it. But to claim there isn't a problem here displays the same blindness as the Consortium die-hards.

See David, your knack for taking the "high ground" while being simultaneously condescending is way more annoying to me than Nick's "culture of snark". So different things rub people the wrong way. Like you said, if people can't deal with it they can leave. I'd say the general culture here is much more indicative of the real word than the nurturing, all-inclusive, gold star for everyone utopia you're hoping for.

That's interesting. See I didn't think I was being condescending at all. I certainly didn't intend that. What did you find condescending about my post?

[FISHMANPET]

SSC always posts about UrbanMSP is full of meanies and they get "driven out" and I don't really know what that means. So I postulated that maybe they don't like open debate, and would prefer to just check their opinions out into the void to be preserved in amber (seems to be a lot of the posting on SSC is of that variety).

I don't really know that people are "leaving." Yes people have stopped posting. And new people have registered. And some have left and come back again. And some have been here since time immortal, and some will never be here. I'm fairly certain this forum gets more posts per day than SSC, so I don't think this community is at risk of shriveling on the vine and dying because we're not nice enough.

[612transplant]

I left because the snark here was too high. I actually didn't feel like the discussion EVER stayed on topic of what the title was.

Grant, respectfully, the snark level here isn't any higher than it is at SSC. It is just coming from people who do not necessarily agree with you, so it is *perceptibly* higher. Try being of the minority opinion over there on SSC, and see how warm and fuzzy and welcoming the place is.

Case in point: did you see Observant's post in the development thread recently? And did you see CityOfLakes's response? And did you notice that nobody over there came to Observant's defense, and called out the obvious snark and hostility? (which, even you have to admit, more than a few posters here do when snark is thrown around...)

Or, do you remember the snark and vitriol that got lobbed at Observant back in December, the first time he called into question the veracity of this "consortium"?

Did you watch the maelstrom of snark from munchymunch and a number of others Sunday night when other posters were pointing out how far the lid had just blown off of that thing?

I know you like to believe that urban=bad, and SSC=good, but it's not that simple. I appreciate, actually, that these discussions do tend to be more germane and development-related over here.

I mean, my God, SSC's development thread was dominated by a few posters pledging allegiance to unverifiable rumors from mystery posters for the better part of a year. Can you honestly tell me that the conversation about development here is more off-topic and less germane?

It is *all* perception, Grant. Mine is different from yours. Big reason why I stayed away from that place for so long, and big reason why I won't be back after what transpired there this week. Which sucks, because I like that site a lot, in principle.

Did I think June and the consortium were real? Yes. I did. Because it really wasn't all that rare for a developer to come and share information on SSC. Do I care now that they could be fakes and part of a big hoax? Yes.

Not "could be," Grant: "are."

It really makes me upset. Not only because June would message me countless times, but because she was so nice to me, so kind and well, grandmother like the character she played. I'm still a bit confused about some of this stuff going on. That's all I'm going to say. I'd find it respectful for you not to mention my leaving or posting habits anymore. Thank you

It sucks, majorly. I will admit that at times I wanted to believe them, and like I said over there, we should all proceed with caution on calling them out, because if they are who they say they are, then that is only a good thing, right? What's wrong with people promising skyscrapers for downtown Minneapolis?

But it became very apparent very early that the evidence against them being real was insurmountable. I am sorry that it happened that way, I'm sorry if you took it personally, I'm sorry if it made you defensive, and, you know what? I'm sorry if I perceived you being defensive as you being snarky.

But I will never understand this tendency to keep siding with them. I'm not sure if that is technically Stockholm Syndrome, but it's darn close....

[David Greene]

"So different things rub people the wrong way." Of course. But it's not a leaders role to tell members that they rub him the wrong way, unless you're an employer. Things that rub Nick the wrong way get called out with little explanation, and the figurehead of the board makes it clear he doesn't like you. If it rubs Tyle the wrong way, so what? Do you not see the difference there?

I disagree that there is a difference. It's certainly true that as the face of the group, Nick is in some ways a target for peoples' frustrations. But rudeness is rudeness no matter where it comes from. People can just as easily be pushed out by some random poster. That is where we should step in and explain why things might be considered the wrong way to go about things.

[David Greene]

It really makes me upset. Not only because June would message me countless times, but because she was so nice to me, so kind and well, grandmother like the character she played. I'm still a bit confused about some of this stuff going on.

You shouldn't feel bad about it. This is exactly how sociopaths manipulate people. We've all been manipulated in this way one time or another. It's on the sociopath, not you.

I do hope you come back here some day. I really like your enthusiasm and it's clear to me that you know a lot more than I do about the details of this stuff. I'd like to keep learning from you.

[FISHMANPET]

I was 17 once, and I thought I had the whole world figured out. Now I'm 28 and I still think I've got the whole world figured out (but I know 17 year old me didn't have the world figured out). In 11 years I'll be 39 and I'll think 28 year old me didn't have the world figured out, but 39 year old me does. And repeat until I die. And I'll die thinking I've got the world figured out, when in fact in the scope of human knowledge I basically know nothing. But meanwhile I've got a great wife and some rad friends and two awesome cats so things can't be that bad, can they?