Forum Etiquette

Introductions - Urban Issues - Miscellaneous News, Topics, Interests
PhilmerPhil
Moderator
Posts: 1206
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 11:38 am
Location: SOUP: SOuth UPtown

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby PhilmerPhil » January 29th, 2015, 8:17 pm

I enjoy Nick's posts, but I don't enjoy how some people respond to Nick's posts, which makes me not enjoy Nick's posts as much sometimes.

IllogicalJake
Target Field
Posts: 529
Joined: January 30th, 2014, 9:03 am

Re: Rumors!

Postby IllogicalJake » January 29th, 2015, 8:48 pm

Nick wrote:
IllogicalJake wrote:
Nick wrote:Well, war crimes are despicable, anything on an Internet forum might be a level or two below that. I told him in a private message to not post his entire stream of consciousness on the forum.
Oy, this is gonna be a long one...

Like when I was mixed up in the rumors situation, you sent me this:
"You're missing at least a few years of context here, if not at least a decade."

Great. When I wanted some context? No response. Multiple times. Very helpful. You showed off that you know the situation more than me without any interest in actually filling me in.
I sent you a 509 word response that included a full description of my interpretation of the context involved and a link to Rick's LinkedIn page. Back in October.
But I first messaged you in June... and then I started a thread that you called "cringeworthy." Then I messaged you again. Then you sent it.

If your initial abrasiveness is on purpose, whatever, I'm not trying to force a new way, I just don't agree with it.

It's definitely at odds with Streets.MN's vision of "A public better informed and engaged on transportation and land use issues," because your methods push away the public in favor of a smarter, by your standards, people. Including folks who want to work in this industry being pushed away.. so I've never understood this whole merger.

But jeeze, I don't hate you for it and never understood why you won't just have a conversation about anything, just constant criticisms of me. But I always agree with and like everything else you post that's actually contributing or just funny. I actually love your sense of humor when it's not making fun of me trying to get my hang around this city, I guess.
i talk too much. web dev, downtown. admin @ tower.ly

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4759
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Rumors!

Postby David Greene » January 30th, 2015, 8:04 am

Tyler wrote:
David Greene wrote: But to claim there isn't a problem here displays the same blindness as the Consortium die-hards.
David Greene wrote: That's interesting. See I didn't think I was being condescending at all. I certainly didn't intend that. What did you find condescending about my post?
Since were hashing it all out -- your post is pretty innocuous but the last sentence it the type of thing you like include in your debates. It's just a throw away ad hominem. To me it's more disrespectful than using sarcasm or being too direct with someone or any of your other complaints. Not that your posts really bother me or anything. I just find you taking the lead on the "Nick is rude" campaign a little off-putting.
Ok, I can see how that line might come off wrong. I wasn't trying to insult anyone, I was trying to point out that we all have blind spots. I apologize for the poor analogy.

I also don't intend to "lead" a witchhunt of Nick or anything. I'm simply expressing feelings and opinions that come from observation and participation. I certainly don't claim that I've got it all figured out. I think about some of my posts and absolutely cringe. Effective communication is a lifelong learning process.

Thanks for holding me accountable in a useful way, I appreciate that a lot.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4759
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby David Greene » January 30th, 2015, 8:06 am

EOst wrote:I for one enjoy Nick's posts, and indeed nearly everything people post here. But then, I've been arguing on internet forums since I was... 9? (I was, of course, always right.)
Heh. I started about the same age. My dad was that parent who raised his hand when a group of parents were asked if their kids were on the phone too much (modem).

IllogicalJake
Target Field
Posts: 529
Joined: January 30th, 2014, 9:03 am

Re: Rumors!

Postby IllogicalJake » January 30th, 2015, 8:56 am

David Greene wrote:I also don't intend to "lead" a witchhunt of Nick or anything. I'm simply expressing feelings and opinions that come from observation and participation. I certainly don't claim that I've got it all figured out. I think about some of my posts and absolutely cringe. Effective communication is a lifelong learning process.
Exactly! Someone PMed me asking why I'm suddenly trying to oust Nick. The heck? I present problems and solutions in the "real world" every day and it's effective. It leads to a discussion, people weigh in, it sticks to the topic at hand. That's my workplace, it's what I'm used to. Here, it's a mutiny. I'm obsessed. I'm putting too much thought into "the internet." Give me a break, I'm just an enthusiastic guy that wants to be a part of this community. I ask for nothing more.

No doubt I could present it better, I still haven't found that groove.

But I also feel like the drama-scale here is turned up to 100, in my experiences. Members are flat-out willing to tell other members that they're not welcome here.

And more bizarre to me that the people not on the receiving end of the "you're not welcome here" are completely cool with it.

People *really* think people leave here because they don't like their ideas being challenged? That's a myth, completely. It's the hostility from some people on the board, unrelated to city issues. And I know because I've talked to people. None of the stressful experiences I've had here in my first year had anything to do with my input, my experience, or my ideas for the city... and I've taken some time to confirm that others have had similar experiences, no matter how many times posters here say it's because of their "ideas being challenged."

... Why are we okay with this?

PS also started on the internet at 9. Good age.
i talk too much. web dev, downtown. admin @ tower.ly

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6194
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby twincitizen » January 30th, 2015, 9:25 am

I feel like we're verging towards the territory of what was discussed in the beginning of this very thread. I'd advise everyone to go read at least pages 1-2 again. It's pretty good stuff. And MSPtoMKE's one-liner was hilarious.

It sounds like many folks here are long-time internet forum users here, and probably know how incredibly crappy forums can be. Rampant trolling, people who don't understand trolling and get into a fight, crappy/spammy posting, etc. I think we've made it pretty clear that we'd like a higher level of discussion here than most internet forums. Basically, if most people act like adults as much as possible, there is as little moderation as possible. And I don't think that has changed much in the 2.5 years that urbanmsp has been in operation. The vast majority of people on urbanmsp are very thoughtful in their posting, both in content and grammar. If new people come along and aren't getting it that we expect just a little better than other forums out there, then I don't see the problem in showing them the door after giving them multiple chances. (By showing them the door I mean actual banning for ban-able offenses).

IllogicalJake
Target Field
Posts: 529
Joined: January 30th, 2014, 9:03 am

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby IllogicalJake » January 30th, 2015, 10:17 am

Hey twincitizen, I appreciate you responding to this, and I just want to get input, I'm not trying to force anything. But I think this discussion is valuable.

To me, though, your post isn't addressing anything I said, or maybe I'm not making the connection.

"If new people come along and aren't getting it that we expect just a little better than other forums out there, then I don't see the problem in showing them the door"

In theory, great. But, that's not what's happening, as I'm repeatedly trying to show. That's not what anyone has said has happened, except nasa35. This isn't about him, though. This is about all of the well-intentioned, good posters (me, for an example to use here, but I can name many others) who are told they're not welcome. I've certainly never been told why I'm unwelcome, even though I've been called many names and insults by people who disagree with me. Someone found me on Facebook and used my picture, how nice of them.

I'm tired of this "people leave because we hold them to a higher standard." myth. How many ways can I show that it's total bull, just reinforced by the bad grammar and newbs that we see at SSC? Yes, it's a different place, it has a different crowd. But I've yet to find a person (except nasa35,) where the steps you just outlined have actually played out.

Rather than constantly repeating it, though, I'll just keep my argument to this sentence:

Good, knowledgeable people here are bullied out of this place and it goes completely overlooked, because nobody cares unless they're called an annoying little fag. It hurts our city, it hurts Streets.MN, and it hurts this board. And we refuse to acknowledge that it's even happened.
i talk too much. web dev, downtown. admin @ tower.ly

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6194
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby twincitizen » January 30th, 2015, 10:25 am

IllogicalJake wrote:I'm told I'm unwelcome. I was called a fag by one member. I was told I'm better off at SSC with the "kiddies running around there."
By a moderator though? Or someone else? Some of us recall you had a public blowout with minneapolisite over the whole Pride thing, in which probably everyone was on your "side", if there were even sides. He was later banned, at his own (seemingly drunken) request. Surely we can move on from that?

I think we are somewhat conflating "people leaving on their own free will" and "people being banned". Several months ago, there were a few posters who simply.could.not.handle the fact that Nick had "disrespected" retiredbanker with skepticism. That situation went into a death spiral, people acted out, and some got banned. I think with the revelations of the past week in hand, the skeptics have been 100% validated.

Here's another example of someone who was banned (at some point following this conversation), because he was part of a small group of people who could not stop posting "it should be taller" in various threads. That was a situation where we were (are still are) completely fine with people migrating over to SSC if all they want to talk about is how buildings should be taller.

As far as people leaving on their own over the course of 2.5 years for reasons specific to "the management" or "the culture" here, yes there have been a few, for a wide range of reasons I'm sure.

Suburban Outcast
Landmark Center
Posts: 239
Joined: June 10th, 2012, 8:33 pm

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby Suburban Outcast » January 31st, 2015, 2:00 am

Honestly, some of the discussions on the forum and streets.mn in general are off-putting to me due to condescending tones. It has lead me to become more apathetic towards urban planning in general. I have gradually focused towards getting GIS-based jobs over the planning field (although they can go hand-in-hand) because I realized that I'd rather deal with maps than arguing with people constantly (from either side of the political spectrum).

I still accept this forum for what it is, and I just mostly lurk rather than express my opinion often. I'm sure I come off as naive to most if not all posters, so I'd rather just avoid saying my two cents and causing another verbal shitstorm. Every forum has its own identity and I don't think SSC and UrbanMSP are going to transform into something more different.

If anything imo it's a good thing that I personally found out that this isn't something I would want to do as a career before I actually finished my bachelor's. Many of the posters on here are more passionate on the subject than I am, and I wish them the best of luck if they are participating in the actual planning realm (or plan to).

P.S. Remember that you can always block certain users if you fell that are they are being disrespectful to you or others

IllogicalJake
Target Field
Posts: 529
Joined: January 30th, 2014, 9:03 am

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby IllogicalJake » February 2nd, 2015, 4:07 pm

I'm not trying to dominate the thread with "me" "me" "me" but to answer the questions...
twincitizen wrote:
IllogicalJake wrote:I'm told I'm unwelcome. I was called a fag by one member. I was told I'm better off at SSC with the "kiddies running around there."
By a moderator though? Or someone else? Some of us recall you had a public blowout with minneapolisite over the whole Pride thing, in which probably everyone was on your "side", if there were even sides. He was later banned, at his own (seemingly drunken) request. Surely we can move on from that?
Heh, I'm not talking about minneapolisite. I ran into that guy once, and I'd have probably gotten along with him alright if not for that argument. But the members I mention are probably reading this, certainly not banned.
I think we are somewhat conflating "people leaving on their own free will" and "people being banned"
I've not mentioned anyone that's been banned that I know of, except nasa35. I'm not asking for anyone to be banned, either.
Here's another example... That was a situation where we were (are still are) completely fine with people migrating over to SSC if all they want to talk about is how buildings should be taller.
And that looks like it worked out fine! I understand some migration between the sites is natural.
As far as people leaving on their own over the course of 2.5 years for reasons specific to "the management" or "the culture" here, yes there have been a few, for a wide range of reasons I'm sure.
Yes! The people leaving because of reasons specific to "the management" are specifically (and only) what I'm calling out. My post I directed toward Nick was calling out Nick directly.

Honestly, my point is this - In the past several months making a lot of friends in the dev community, I keep hearing more "horror" stories about Nick. Private messages. Ignoring responses. Name-calling. Not open for conversation. Sarcastic responses to legit questions. The Streets.MN vision is inclusive of everybody, including the people Nick finds annoying and tries to quietly push away to a non-Nick-run site.

That is my understand from the stories that I've heard, and it's matched up with the interactions I've had with Nick myself. I think it's immature that I was called cringeworthy when Nick is supposedly the epitome of maturity. I think it's immature that several of my messages go unanswered, even after being read. And I think it's stupid that Nick would rather do these things than talk to me like a real person instead of treating me like an crazy internet person, because then these posts wouldn't even be public...

So yeah, my issue is pointed pretty specifically at the management. Not the quality of posts or argumentative attitudes... I think most who know me know I love a *good* argument.

If anyone wants to chat these things, seek me out and let's do it in private. I've made my points here for the time being.
i talk too much. web dev, downtown. admin @ tower.ly

User avatar
Nick
Capella Tower
Posts: 3000
Joined: May 30th, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Loring Park, Minneapolis

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby Nick » February 2nd, 2015, 4:15 pm

I don't think you're going to get what you're looking for on here

IllogicalJake
Target Field
Posts: 529
Joined: January 30th, 2014, 9:03 am

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby IllogicalJake » February 2nd, 2015, 4:36 pm

Nick wrote:I don't think you're going to get what you're looking for on here
Hey, keep bullying. I don't care that you run a web board the way you want, but I care when I find out it's doing real harm to real people and driving people away from being involved in this city. I take issue with what you say to people you've deemed annoying and how you treat them, and I think you have a very bad problem of treating people like shit once you've determined they're annoying. Especially when you can't quietly drive them away like you always try to do.

But no, I wasn't expecting a response from you this time. I've tried over and over again to talk to you, as many have, but you prefer to ignore. Mature, really.
i talk too much. web dev, downtown. admin @ tower.ly

IllogicalJake
Target Field
Posts: 529
Joined: January 30th, 2014, 9:03 am

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby IllogicalJake » February 2nd, 2015, 8:51 pm

Alright, the fact I've been chewing on this so long means it's not worth the time. Nick, I don't hate you, I like your Streets.MN posts, but I don't get why you don't talk to me when I say hi? I feel like I contribute a lot here yet you make it clear that this isn't the place for through one-liners. I don't get it, but I should've stopped this little fight while it was worthwhile.

I'd rather just delete/close/leave this crap and move past it. I know it's your forum to run, I'll stop dedicated time to disagreeing with it and get back to buildings. Calling you a bully was overboard, but I hope you realize your overuse of sarcasm on the boards doesn't scream "friendly."
i talk too much. web dev, downtown. admin @ tower.ly

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5797
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby MNdible » February 3rd, 2015, 9:59 am

Cheers, Jake.

Wedgeguy
Capella Tower
Posts: 3785
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 6:59 am

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby Wedgeguy » February 3rd, 2015, 2:30 pm

Thanks for expressing yourself Jake. Sometimes you need to stand up and you did well.

Lancestar2

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby Lancestar2 » February 4th, 2015, 8:10 pm

IllogicalJake wrote:Alright, the fact I've been chewing on this so long means it's not worth the time. Nick, I don't hate you, I like your Streets.MN posts, but I don't get why you don't talk to me when I say hi? I feel like I contribute a lot here yet you make it clear that this isn't the place for through one-liners. I don't get it, but I should've stopped this little fight while it was worthwhile.

I'd rather just delete/close/leave this crap and move past it. I know it's your forum to run, I'll stop dedicated time to disagreeing with it and get back to buildings. Calling you a bully was overboard, but I hope you realize your overuse of sarcasm on the boards doesn't scream "friendly."

Nice effort Jake but, seriously are you attempting to have a conversation of intelligent discourse with an individual who posted this only a mere month ago?
Nick wrote:i'm p upset that I saw this for the first time today


Surly he has not had enough time to play his song all the way through yet. I would hope you have more etiquetteness to allow him to do his many many busy busy mod things that must get done.
Nick wrote:I don't think you're going to get what you're looking for on here
I also believe that is your innovation to leave the forum, although with my inferior intelligent I could be wrong. Either way this is not Mcdonalds so don't expect satisfactory service and to be "lovin it" ;)

Now let's all carry on with our inferior conversations and stop bugging the mod's cause they have many many busy buys things to work on...
Nick wrote:Image

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3800
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: The Gateway

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby Silophant » February 4th, 2015, 8:20 pm

Great to have you back, Lance.

VAStationDude
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 782
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:30 am

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby VAStationDude » October 1st, 2015, 6:56 pm

https://imgur.com/qtGSHoe

Am I missing much?

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3800
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: The Gateway

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby Silophant » October 1st, 2015, 7:20 pm

Stuff is ugly, winter is coming.

VAStationDude
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 782
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:30 am

Re: Forum Etiquette

Postby VAStationDude » October 1st, 2015, 7:23 pm

I giggled like a small child.


Return to “Anything Goes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest