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Tyler
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Tyler » July 15th, 2014, 10:39 pm

Sometimes you guys are incredibly lame. If something does not currently exist it isn't viable? And what's a more completely stupid appeal to authority than "tell me what the bank says"?
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Nathan
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Nathan » July 15th, 2014, 11:21 pm

lame... or realistic ( just like some like to be lame and annoying about telling people there isn't need for a super tall) I'd make a conjecture that the craft coffee shops are more resident frequented than office worker frequented and since the resident population of the cbd is much less than the downtown neighborhoods like north loop, Loring, and mill city that's why we're not seeing it in the center. as soon as some of these big projects come online and there are more residents in the cbd then I'd say a craft coffee shop is feasible in the central business district.

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Nathan
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Nathan » July 15th, 2014, 11:31 pm

Small business owners are smart, to be successful they need steady business saturday through sunday, morning to night (especially coffee shops) Why would any small business entrepreneur look at this map (which they would if they were smart) and decide to invest in the CBD?

http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/sites/tcda ... umbers.png

They need revenue 24/7 and there aren't the people there to supply it.

I'm not saying I don't want it, because I do.

Tyler
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Tyler » July 16th, 2014, 9:22 am

I'm sticking with lame. Craft coffee shops aren't frequented by office workers here because there isn't one for them to frequent. Build it and they will come. Just be high quality enough to set yourself apart and charge enough to make a profit. It would be the only game in town so it would be incredibly busy and make money hand over frappuccino. Or not. Maybe it would fail. But, given how authoritatively they've been presented I find all of the negative opinions unconvincing and short sighted. Like I said, it's a model that's worked elsewhere. Don't see why it couldn't here.

Take a look at the hours here:
http://samjamescoffeebar.com/#path
Or here:
http://www.jacksonplacecafe.com/directions.php
Or here:
http://voxxseattle.com/#contact
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Nathan
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Nathan » July 16th, 2014, 10:17 am

Tyler wrote:I'm sticking with lame. Craft coffee shops aren't frequented by office workers here because there isn't one for them to frequent. Build it and they will come. Just be high quality enough to set yourself apart and charge enough to make a profit. It would be the only game in town so it would be incredibly busy and make money hand over frappuccino. Or not. Maybe it would fail. But, given how authoritatively they've been presented I find all of the negative opinions unconvincing and short sighted. Like I said, it's a model that's worked elsewhere. Don't see why it couldn't here.

Take a look at the hours here:
http://samjamescoffeebar.com/#path
Or here:
http://www.jacksonplacecafe.com/directions.php
Or here:
http://voxxseattle.com/#contact
There is a major culture difference between Minneapolis and those cities, even if you are in an echo chamber of people who like really good coffee (which I am, and like I said, I'm not against, rather for a good coffee shop downtown) the majority of people here grew up where coffee black was good enough, and the large majority of people are fine with Folgers drip coffee at the office. It may happen with more people with more money moving downtown, but companies do market research and such before opening, it's not like us to gamble (not that I don't think they should) You'd have to cultivate the coffee culture downtown and that takes a lot of time and patience and money in a city that doesn't have it. We'll see it someday, people will move downtown and slowly the culture will creep into the mainstream it just isn't yet.

mattaudio
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby mattaudio » July 16th, 2014, 10:49 am

Know why most people pay for coffee? Because free office coffee is bitter, needs decent milk/creamer to not be bitter, and they usually only supply powdered creamer. Thus the actual drink demand for drip coffee or a latte at your block's Caribou. It's also an excuse to get away from the desk and walk a little bit. I don't think there's demand for fancy coffee, even downtown - why go to that level when all you need is to be an alternative to break room coffee and a destination for a walk?

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Nathan
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Nathan » July 16th, 2014, 11:03 am

mattaudio wrote:Know why most people pay for coffee? Because free office coffee is bitter, needs decent milk/creamer to not be bitter, and they usually only supply powdered creamer. Thus the actual drink demand for drip coffee or a latte at your block's Caribou. It's also an excuse to get away from the desk and walk a little bit. I don't think there's demand for fancy coffee, even downtown - why go to that level when all you need is to be an alternative to break room coffee and a destination for a walk?
As if I don't know why... you know there are still people who eat a PB and J at their desk too... lot's of people drink 3 to 5 coffees a day, but only one is from a retailer, and I have a feeling Most offices have a Keurig by now too. I'm just saying it's going to take some time to get the 100,000 some people who commute into the city from the suburbs who are used to bringing coffee in in their own thermos, or already know what they love at the Caribou in Eden Prairie to suddenly jump up and decide to spend 2 more dollars and 10 more minutes for a coffee instead of getting what they already like at a caribou in the skyway. It's not my personal take, I'm just thinking about the majority (daytime) market consumer objectively. (also objectively my office had really good peace coffee and always had real cream). In cities like TO and SEA and SFO there are a lot of great coffee shops in the burbs, and in the residential urban neighborhoods so their workers want that when they get downtown too, I'm just saying, reading the market, I wouldn't risk opening one in the CBD until there were more residents with a little bit more cash to spend, and hopefully then I could cash in on the office culture too. (I think 4 marq, soo line, 222, and nic on 5th could be enough, honestly, hopefully it will be soon)

Tyler
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Tyler » July 16th, 2014, 11:13 am

Nathan wrote: There is a major culture difference between Minneapolis and those cities, even if you are in an echo chamber of people who like really good coffee (which I am, and like I said, I'm not against, rather for a good coffee shop downtown) the majority of people here grew up where coffee black was good enough, and the large majority of people are fine with Folgers drip coffee at the office. It may happen with more people with more money moving downtown, but companies do market research and such before opening, it's not like us to gamble (not that I don't think they should) You'd have to cultivate the coffee culture downtown and that takes a lot of time and patience and money in a city that doesn't have it. We'll see it someday, people will move downtown and slowly the culture will creep into the mainstream it just isn't yet.
Heh. Just keep firing away, huh? Not every example is perfectly analogous. But I gave 3 example of places open limited hours in areas that are dead on the nights/weekends. I thought small business NEEDED to be open and busy at all hours of every day or there would be not hope? And you're wrong about Toronto. Minneapolis/St Paul is at least on par with the coffee culture there. That's why the wildly successful and insanely busy Sam James is, in fact, the perfect example. Every single reason you've stated could have been used as a reason for it not to succeed. Yet, there it is, locked away in an underground tunnel between office buildings pumping out coffee as quickly as a place like this possibly can. It was by far the busiest off the 4 or 5 cafes I've stopped at in Toronto. Two espresso machines working full blast.
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Nathan
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Nathan » July 16th, 2014, 11:17 am

yes congratulations, 3 examples... 2 in extremely international cities, and one in a coffee town, sorry if I don't necessarily associate those business models with Minneapolis.

Tyler
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Tyler » July 16th, 2014, 11:25 am

You win?
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Nathan
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Nathan » July 16th, 2014, 11:29 am

No I don't win, because we don't have one, I'm telling you I'd love one, but I also see why we don't have one and probably won't for a while, to be pie in the sky and say we should have one just 'because' is just silly. when the evidence is heavily against it. I just did google searches for independent coffee shops in Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, St. Louis, Kansas City, and Pittsburgh, and none of them came up with sub basement unending espresso machines. BUT, I wish they did. this high end coffee shop argument is like the we need a super tall downtown argument, would it be nice, yup, is it practical yet, no... unless someone has the cash and the passion and wants to gamble, then I'm all for it.

Wedgeguy
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Wedgeguy » July 16th, 2014, 11:41 am

Nathan wrote:yes congratulations, 3 examples... 2 in extremely international cities, and one in a coffee town, sorry if I don't necessarily associate those business models with Minneapolis.
My advice to Tyler is the same to Minneapolsite, You get a business plan and investors/bankers and you get them to fund it. Once you find out how much overhead is, equipment investment, and the customer count and dollar per customer you will need to make this fly. Tyler and Minneapolsite will get back to us soon with concrete numbers that will support their theory that opening a profitable coffee shop is easy. But I will warn them, if a landlord does not think your profitable enough, or they can make better money, be prepared to have to find another location. Part of the real world. There are empty store fronts on Hennepin, plenty of vacant skyway space, there is even empty street storefront. You now know why there is so much turnover with restaurants and cafes downtown. Because they can be a money pit if you don't have what the majority of your prospective customers want. Very few customers are willing to stand in line for several minutes to both wait in line and to wait for a craft brewed coffee when their time is money. That is your clientele in the CBD., not the leisurely, I have an hour or two to kill. Please get back to us soon. Nathan and I and possibly a few more would like to know the 101 on starting a craft coffee house in the CBD.
Last edited by Wedgeguy on July 16th, 2014, 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tyler
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Tyler » July 16th, 2014, 11:43 am

What evidence? You doing google searches? I think I've presented just as much "evidence" as you (ie. none). See... I think an artisan coffee shop could be successful and gave reasons why . You KNOW it can't because blah blah Kansas City blah blah. That's why you're lame.
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Wedgeguy
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Wedgeguy » July 16th, 2014, 11:46 am

Tyler wrote:What evidence? You doing google searches? I think I've presented just as much "evidence" as you (ie. none). See... I think an artisan coffee shop could be successful and gave reasons why . You KNOW it can't because blah blah Kansas City blah blah. That's why you're lame.
Well the economic of other cities is not Minneapolis, As I posted a few above, Show us the numbers and I'll agree with you!!

Tyler
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Tyler » July 16th, 2014, 11:47 am

Great post Wedgeguy. You've presented an amazing and compelling argument. Thank you for adding absolutely nothing to the discussion.
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Nathan
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Nathan » July 16th, 2014, 11:51 am

I actually gave demographic/density evidence, and cultural (anecdotal) evidence, saturation of local chain evidence, and presented cases from actual peer cities, you're choosing to ignore my evidence, and how businesses work in general. which is funny because we both would like it to happen I can just see past my own desire. And I also don't feel the need to call you lame, that kind of internet name calling is well... lame.

Wedgeguy
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Wedgeguy » July 16th, 2014, 11:55 am

Tyler wrote:Great post Wedgeguy. You've presented an amazing and compelling argument. Thank you for adding absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Your welcome, I brought as much reality to the table as you did.

Tyler
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Tyler » July 16th, 2014, 12:00 pm

Nathan wrote:I actually gave demographic/density evidence, and cultural (anecdotal) evidence, saturation of local chain evidence, and presented cases from actual peer cities, you're choosing to ignore my evidence, and how businesses work in general. which is funny because we both would like it to happen I can just see past my own desire. And I also don't feel the need to call you lame, that kind of internet name calling is well... lame.
Your "evidence" is pure conjecture and opinion. Your list of cities are not peer cities when it comes to coffee. Kansas City does not have a single solitary third wave cafe. Yet, it's an "actual" peer city? St Louis and Phoenix are years behind us.
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Tyler
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Tyler » July 16th, 2014, 12:03 pm

Wedgeguy wrote:
Tyler wrote:Great post Wedgeguy. You've presented an amazing and compelling argument. Thank you for adding absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Your welcome, I brought as much reality to the table as you did.
Tell you what -- you get a business plan and investors/bankers and you get them to deny funding. Once you find out how much overhead is, equipment investment, and the customer count and dollar per customer you will need to make this fly. You will get back to us soon with concrete numbers that will support your theory that opening a profitable coffee shop is like, impossible man. But I will warn you, if a landlord thinks your profitable enough, be prepared to have a super awesome shop in an amazing location. Part of the real world.
Towns!

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Nathan
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Re: Downtown Restaurant News

Postby Nathan » July 16th, 2014, 12:09 pm

Tyler wrote:
Nathan wrote:I actually gave demographic/density evidence, and cultural (anecdotal) evidence, saturation of local chain evidence, and presented cases from actual peer cities, you're choosing to ignore my evidence, and how businesses work in general. which is funny because we both would like it to happen I can just see past my own desire. And I also don't feel the need to call you lame, that kind of internet name calling is well... lame.
Your "evidence" is pure conjecture and opinion. Your list of cities are not peer cities when it comes to coffee. Kansas City does not have a single solitary third wave cafe. Yet, it's an "actual" peer city? St Louis and Phoenix are years behind us.
And yet, we're years behind TO, SFO, and SEA and you're demanding it like fact NOW!!! MOAR NOW!!! ME WANT COFFEE!!!


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