Let's establish some rules on rumors?

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IllogicalJake
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby IllogicalJake » October 2nd, 2014, 12:33 pm

Who said anything about taking it as gospel? I am taking it for what it is.
What, you don't like having everything you post being exaggerated into insane territory to make it easier for someone else to make their point?

I don't think most people here would know how to have a discussion if that's the case. I mean, half these people here think I'm against the rumors-posters just because I proposed creating a forum for them so those that don't want to see them will quit bitching about it.

People who don't mind reading rumors now "worship" them. People who'd prefer rumors being clearly noted are "vilifying" them. This is just a childish thread full of logical fallacies and shit attitudes. I thought it'd be cool to rally some people together to actually make some progress in this city, but screw that noise. It's not what's wanted.

At least in Indy I could get together with the urban dev community for a beer after speaking up at city hall against a downtown drive-thru project. I thought I was moving up to a better and more active urban community. Hah. This isn't a community, this is a mess of news posts with comments.

It's cool. I'm not like you folks. If this is what you prefer, have at it.
Last edited by IllogicalJake on October 2nd, 2014, 12:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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bubzki2
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby bubzki2 » October 2nd, 2014, 12:38 pm

Simplest solution is usually the best. Just create two sub-forums, one as it currently exists, and one for those deemed rumors by the admins. Obviously, an arbiter would need to enforce placement of "news" vs. "rumors" if the users can't do so on their own. I think a lot of traffic to this site is driven by rumors, but the question may be: is traffic to this site really a goal?

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Nathan
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby Nathan » October 2nd, 2014, 12:39 pm

I personally feel like speculation is a better word than rumors.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby FISHMANPET » October 2nd, 2014, 12:43 pm

People who don't mind reading rumors now "worship" them. People who'd prefer rumors being clearly noted are "vilifying" them. This is just a childish thread full of logical fallacies and shit attitudes. I thought it'd be cool to rally some people together to actually make some progress in this city, but screw that noise. It's not what's wanted.

At least in Indy I could get together with the urban dev community for a beer after speaking up at city hall against a downtown drive-thru project. I thought I was moving up to a better and more active urban community. Hah. This isn't a community, this is a mess of news posts with comments.

It's cool. I'm not like you folks. If this is what you prefer, have at it.
Read this and tell me I'm not at least a little on target:
You'd have to ask Avian. Frankly, it all sounds a bit rumor-ish, if none of this ever leaked to the media.
:| At this point I may never again respond, so I'll just say this. I have been privy to information that comes from two people (whom I have great respect for) who have directly negotiated with a certain retailer and who have updated me on the ups and downs of said negotiations for more than a year. And I am not the only one on this site who knows about the situation. Yes, some members of the media are well aware of this retailer's intentions. But none of the people involved in the project will speak with the media even on terms of anonymity so to print anything at all about it would pretty much violate any journalistic integrity. That said, the fact that one of the direct negotiators chose to divulge the name of the retailer and many details about the project on another website was her choice and so those of us aware of the project are feeling a little more free to talk about it.

There are people on this site and others who are not merely architectural fanboys. Many are directly involved in projects around the Twin Cities and elsewhere in the nation. If all some people want is "official, confirmed public announcements" then I suggest they just monitor Google News and stop hanging around UrbanMSP.
Yeah. Not sure what twincitizen calling you a liar is all about. Some people are just, frankly -- dicks.

bubzki2
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby bubzki2 » October 2nd, 2014, 12:48 pm

I personally feel like speculation is a better word than rumors.
https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?p=69057#p69057

I think we have an impasse. (Duh)

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Nathan
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby Nathan » October 2nd, 2014, 12:54 pm

I personally feel like speculation is a better word than rumors.
https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?p=69057#p69057

I think we have an impasse. (Duh)
Speculation could mean a wide variety of things and Rumors seems to have a negative connotation. SO while it might be semantic it's still a better descriptor than either rumor or unconfirmed news.

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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby IllogicalJake » October 2nd, 2014, 12:54 pm

Read this and tell me I'm not at least a little on target:
And I'm not saying I agree with Avian or anyone else. I've already said I personally feel rumors are 90% crazy but that I still feel people should have a place to discuss them. I'm saying let's decide if they have a place here or not so we can end the argument. Rather than deciding "Is this a rumor? Is this allowed here? Should this moved? Should we welcome this?" Just one simple rule that states "Hey, rumors go in this thread." or "Hey, rumors not allowed here." Because every time this argument happens it brings down the image of UrbanMSP more and more.

Now, as I said, some thing I'm for the rumors and some think I'm against. The only thing I wanted was to open a discussion on it to get it out of the other threads.

I've been slapped on the wrist and I'm done now. Observing here is much easier than trying to be all activist.
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FISHMANPET
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby FISHMANPET » October 2nd, 2014, 12:59 pm

And I think it's important to define the problem, and to my eye, this issue only flares up when someone questions a rumor. Especially since that's the exact issue that started this whole thing, it's important to see the context in which it started. And especially see who's dragging the forums down into nonsense.

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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby IllogicalJake » October 2nd, 2014, 1:02 pm

And I think it's important to define the problem, and to my eye, this issue only flares up when someone questions a rumor. Especially since that's the exact issue that started this whole thing, it's important to see the context in which it started. And especially see who's dragging the forums down into nonsense.
I'm okay with that, then. Maybe I should've presented more examples. But I've also since been assured that changes aren't going to happen. So I'm over it and still calling for this thread to just go away...
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xandrex
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby xandrex » October 2nd, 2014, 1:10 pm

Simplest solution is usually the best. Just create two sub-forums, one as it currently exists, and one for those deemed rumors by the admins. Obviously, an arbiter would need to enforce placement of "news" vs. "rumors" if the users can't do so on their own. I think a lot of traffic to this site is driven by rumors, but the question may be: is traffic to this site really a goal?
I think the simplest solution would be to simply just let rumors sit. They may (or may not) contribute to discussion. If it gets out of hand with speculation, move it to the rumors thread. If you don't like it, ignore it.

Having subforums and subthreads and all sorts of stuff is a needlessly bureaucratic solution for something that really only crops up every once in a while.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby FISHMANPET » October 2nd, 2014, 1:10 pm

I think the "solution" is that, if you're going to post insider information, don't flip out if someone doubts or questions you. If your skin isn't thick enough to handle that, then maybe you shouldn't be sharing this secret information in the first place.

To my eye, that's the root of all these problems, is people being overly sensitive when they're not believed.

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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby Didier » October 2nd, 2014, 1:14 pm

Or we could just take xandrex's proposal, which is perfectly reasonable and normal.

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Avian
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby Avian » October 2nd, 2014, 1:18 pm

I need to say something. First of all, I never thought anyone was calling me a "liar." That was said by someone else.

Second, I've always tried to preface any behind-the-scenes news with a general reminder that oftentimes many of these planned projects don't get built or are drastically changed. I am not offended by anyone who is skeptical about whether something gets built. I am myself often skeptical. When I was doing the marketing images for the Nicollet Condo tower I was the first person on Minnescraper who voiced real concern that that project was heading for the dump. I do get a little irritated when someone rejects something I might say out of hand as being untrue. I and others here in "the business" often report on stuff going on that hasn't hit the papers yet. Again, some projects may not get built but that doesn't mean they were invented out of thin air.

Finally, when I said "I may never again respond" I was referring specifically to the Ritz block rumors. I don't intend on leaving this forum anytime soon. So you'll just have to keep putting up with me. :D

“Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something.”
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FISHMANPET
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby FISHMANPET » October 2nd, 2014, 1:25 pm

Now that Avian's spoken up, I say let's close this thread and keep on posting.

I and probably others misinterpreted the "may never again respond" which you've cleared up here. And you seem perfectly mature enough to be able to handle any criticism, but it's clear there are other people that can't handle you being criticized.

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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby Viktor Vaughn » October 2nd, 2014, 1:29 pm

Thanks for your comments, Avian. I always like to hear your take.

IllogicalJake
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby IllogicalJake » October 2nd, 2014, 1:33 pm

Hell, this thread resulted in more progress than I expected. Hear, hear. Now lets close this shit.
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go4guy
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby go4guy » October 2nd, 2014, 1:34 pm

I think the "solution" is that, if you're going to post insider information, don't flip out if someone doubts or questions you. If your skin isn't thick enough to handle that, then maybe you shouldn't be sharing this secret information in the first place.

To my eye, that's the root of all these problems, is people being overly sensitive when they're not believed.
That's the spirit. If you dont like unnecessary negative comments about insider information you are sharing, dont post them. That should make for an interesting forum. How about if you dont believe or if you doubt any insider information, keep it to your self.

I am glad every time Avian posts some new insider information he wants to share. There is absolutely no reason for someone to question him and drive him or others away. He has a good track record on here. Not to be confused with a random poster who makes stuff up. If someone has a track record of that, by all means, rip em.

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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby Tyler » October 2nd, 2014, 1:47 pm

Look. I called twincitizen out there because I felt he was out of line and disrespectful (Avian feels differently -- no problem). If you read the entire exchange, Avian's post was unambiguous and direct (ie. these are the facts). twincitizen responded by passively saying he didn't believe those were really facts. To me, it's a perfect example of an annoying form of communication prevalent in this city. As an analogy: If you walked indoors and told someone "it's raining outside" and they said, "ehh, i'll believe it when i see it" how would you feel about that person? It's questioning someones character when you flippantly question categorical statements made by them.

Besides this one, specific, post, I, personally have no issues with twincitizen or any rumor-basher, rumor-indifferent, or rumor-fiteshshizer. That some people don't see the hostility here towards rumors is amusing to me -- but the hostility itself does not bother me.
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby Tyler » October 2nd, 2014, 1:56 pm

And if calling you a dick was offensive -- I apologize. It was meant as a pithy contrast to your passive-aggresive stylings.
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Re: Let's establish some rules on rumors?

Postby Lancestar2 » October 2nd, 2014, 2:02 pm

Now that we cleared that up... Can we pray to God that nobody ever again shares another Rumor on this forum again? I mean I had somebody who claimed to be in the "Planning and development process world" sharing information with me and asking for my feed back. I know I was shocked somebody seeking out my opinions! ...Perhaps they were just trolling me, either way I was tempted to leak that information. But then I started to get to know this community more and well... I wouldn't even consider leaking or sharing ANYTHING now!... To often people rip apart ideas with there constant negativity I hope any investor or developer is smart enough to NEVER keep us in the loop. And the people who do share rumors start to realize that we can't handle the rumor :lol: ...Perhaps the people leaking the rumors are leaking competing ideas in hopes we tear them apart so they can move forward with there original ideas? How is that for being paranoid?


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