Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

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amiller92
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby amiller92 » March 30th, 2016, 12:02 pm

Lots of evidence here: http://www.hennepinattorney.org/news/ne ... =hootsuite

I haven't poured over it, but my impression of what Freeman showed at the press conference was of a pare of cops who arrived on the seen and quickly escalate to the use of force to try to handcuff Clark in a way that perhaps could have been avoided. Had the one officer not decided to tackle him, it's not clear that there would have been any physical altercation, or any reason for the other officer to shoot.

But I thought Freeman made a believable case that Clark was not handcuffed at the time (no bruises, no physical evidence inside the cuffs) and that after having been tackled Clark grabbed for the gun (DNA on the gun and officer's belt). If there was a struggle over the gun, then the ultimate use of force is justified, I guess.

That said, I'm stuck on the tackle. It didn't look necessary. Freeman said the officer had been trained to do that at a prior job, perhaps implying that the MPD does not train to do that. It sure seems like it shouldn't, at least not anywhere near as a first resort (i.e., within the first minute).

LakeCharles
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby LakeCharles » March 30th, 2016, 12:13 pm

The video is not particularly helpful. The cop all of a sudden puts Clark in a chokehold and takes him down, but its at the edge of the frame. Was there something else going on? It was pretty hard for me to make out.

acs
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby acs » March 30th, 2016, 12:17 pm

Ask yourself this: if this had gone to trial, do you see enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that what the officers did was murder? That's the question freeman had to deal with.

WHS
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby WHS » March 30th, 2016, 12:21 pm

Lots of evidence here: http://www.hennepinattorney.org/news/ne ... =hootsuite

I haven't poured over it, but my impression of what Freeman showed at the press conference was of a pare of cops who arrived on the seen and quickly escalate to the use of force to try to handcuff Clark in a way that perhaps could have been avoided. Had the one officer not decided to tackle him, it's not clear that there would have been any physical altercation, or any reason for the other officer to shoot.

But I thought Freeman made a believable case that Clark was not handcuffed at the time (no bruises, no physical evidence inside the cuffs) and that after having been tackled Clark grabbed for the gun (DNA on the gun and officer's belt). If there was a struggle over the gun, then the ultimate use of force is justified, I guess.

That said, I'm stuck on the tackle. It didn't look necessary. Freeman said the officer had been trained to do that at a prior job, perhaps implying that the MPD does not train to do that. It sure seems like it shouldn't, at least not anywhere near as a first resort (i.e., within the first minute).
100% agree on all counts. There are obviously some problems with that tackle and just the general speed with which things escalated, and I don't think Freeman really downplayed that aspect (or took a position on it at all). On the other hand, with respect to the shooting itself, most of the available evidence does seem to point towards Clark grabbing the gun belt, at which point it becomes very hard to satisfy the legal standard for a criminal charge. The best piece of video evidence shows the officer flopping around on the ground, clearly part of some kind of struggle. Freeman's presentation was awfully difficult to listen to, and I don't think demonized Clark at all in the way victims in police shootings sometimes are. It sounds like a very sad, very chaotic situation, and I hope the inevitable protests focus on the broader issues surrounding police use of force and police interactions with the community rather than baselessly challenging the narrative or the way the decision was handled, which certainly seems to have been done better than in other cities in the past.

amiller92
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby amiller92 » March 30th, 2016, 12:22 pm

As to the tackle, there's this report: in a current news conference, freeman said take down move by ringgenberg not favored or taught by MPD https://twitter.com/chanenstrib/status/ ... 4476696577

amiller92
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby amiller92 » March 30th, 2016, 12:24 pm

Ask yourself this: if this had gone to trial, do you see enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that what the officers did was murder? That's the question freeman had to deal with.
Yeah, I don't think Freeman was wrong, based on what I've seen so far.

But that doesn't put these officers above reproach.

LakeCharles
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby LakeCharles » March 30th, 2016, 12:28 pm

Ask yourself this: if this had gone to trial, do you see enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that what the officers did was murder? That's the question freeman had to deal with.
That's usually not the standard used. At least with a grand jury (the equivalent for this), you instead decide whether the evidence creates probable cause to believe the persons named in an indictment committed the crimes they were charged with. And this might not have met that. But it's probable cause, and not beyond a reasonable doubt, and those are vastly different hurdles to meet.

acs
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby acs » March 30th, 2016, 12:35 pm

Ask yourself this: if this had gone to trial, do you see enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that what the officers did was murder? That's the question freeman had to deal with.
That's usually not the standard used. At least with a grand jury (the equivalent for this), you instead decide whether the evidence creates probable cause to believe the persons named in an indictment committed the crimes they were charged with. And this might not have met that. But it's probable cause, and not beyond a reasonable doubt, and those are vastly different hurdles to meet.
Does it really matter to the protesters if they were charged and not convicted versus not charged at all? When your chant is "no justice, no peace" it doesn't leave much room for settlement.

amiller92
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby amiller92 » March 30th, 2016, 12:39 pm

That's usually not the standard used. At least with a grand jury (the equivalent for this), you instead decide whether the evidence creates probable cause to believe the persons named in an indictment committed the crimes they were charged with. And this might not have met that. But it's probable cause, and not beyond a reasonable doubt, and those are vastly different hurdles to meet.
He only "needs" probable cause to charge, but he also has to prove his case in court to get a conviction, and shouldn't charge if he thinks he can't do that.

Didier
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby Didier » March 30th, 2016, 12:43 pm

I ask this genuinely, in case there is something I'm missing. Why is anything less than murder charges against the officers considered an injustice? Is there more evidence that they executed Jamar Clark beyond the eyewitness reports, which tend to be viewed skeptically in other cases?

Obviously it's terrible that somebody had to die, and I'm not at all saying that people were wrong to protest the investigation process.

My question is only about the immediate reaction from so many people that anything less than murder charges is an injustice. Because the evidence seems to suggest it wasn't, right?

LakeCharles
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby LakeCharles » March 30th, 2016, 12:59 pm

Ask yourself this: if this had gone to trial, do you see enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that what the officers did was murder? That's the question freeman had to deal with.
That's usually not the standard used. At least with a grand jury (the equivalent for this), you instead decide whether the evidence creates probable cause to believe the persons named in an indictment committed the crimes they were charged with. And this might not have met that. But it's probable cause, and not beyond a reasonable doubt, and those are vastly different hurdles to meet.
Does it really matter to the protesters if they were charged and not convicted versus not charged at all? When your chant is "no justice, no peace" it doesn't leave much room for settlement.
I think it matters greatly, yes. If he was charged, all the evidence would be pored over, in a semi-public fashion. Many of the protestors have called for this exact outcome, actually.

Would there be people upset no matter what? Sure. Do the majority of the protestors want these cops sent to jail no matter their guilt? No.

amiller92
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby amiller92 » March 30th, 2016, 1:06 pm

Because someone is dead and that's emotional and difficult to handle, especially if you've been out in the streets protesting about it (and allegedly shot at by white supremacists). Also because violence like this seems to happen all the time. Or so I assume.

Didier
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby Didier » March 30th, 2016, 1:08 pm

As I read a little more I realize I might be presenting a strawman, too.

acs
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby acs » March 30th, 2016, 1:41 pm

I think it matters greatly, yes. If he was charged, all the evidence would be pored over, in a semi-public fashion. Many of the protestors have called for this exact outcome, actually.

Would there be people upset no matter what? Sure. Do the majority of the protestors want these cops sent to jail no matter their guilt? No.
Having just served jury duty on a criminal case, I can tell you that having all the evidence released at once like it was today is definitely more transparent than going to trial. If this had gone to trial, evidence would have to be argued over, objected to, thrown out or simply not introduced at all for tactical reasons and the public would be less well informed for the exact same result.

And honestly, I don't doubt most of the protesters are somewhat reasonable people. However thanks to our sensationalist media all we ever hear about are the ones who make lynch-mob statements like "if the city burns it's on you" or "no justice no peace" and other delusional crap. Unfortunately some of that tone does come from the top but thankfully BLM isn't homogeneous.

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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby EOst » March 30th, 2016, 1:43 pm

I don't know if it deserves murder charges, but the way those officers so rapidly escalated the situation is shameful. None of this would have happened if he hadn't been so immediately tackled(!). People who want to pretend to be John McClane should face the consequences when things don't work out the way they intended.

acs
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby acs » March 30th, 2016, 2:02 pm

Easy to say that when you can't see the other half of what's going on. I think looking at just the tackle is kind of grasping at straws trying to justify the rock throwing that is about to happen.

David Greene
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby David Greene » March 30th, 2016, 2:06 pm

Many people are upset that Clark didn't seem to be resisting until the police took him down. Why did it get that far? I haven't been able to view the videos yet but some are saying he wasn't even bothering the paramedics. One report is that the EMTs were "suspicious" of him. What fueled that suspicion?

Others are very angry at Mike Freeman for dramatizing the "I'm ready to die" quote during his press conference.

I need to go look at these (can't do it at work) but those are the initial reactions from various quarters.

acs
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby acs » March 30th, 2016, 2:21 pm

There's a lot of stuff out there. Read this to start when you get home , then follow the citations to the various pieces of evidence:
http://www.hennepinattorney.org/~/media ... .pdf?la=en

amiller92
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby amiller92 » March 30th, 2016, 3:37 pm

Easy to say that when you can't see the other half of what's going on. I think looking at just the tackle is kind of grasping at straws trying to justify the rock throwing that is about to happen.
I don't think so. They arrived, spoke to him for less than a minute, then tackled and shot him. That may not be criminal, but it's bad policing and I think it's exactly what Freeman was talking about on deescalating.

You can't see the shooting on the ambulance video, but you can see that Clark was not meaningfully acting out or being violent at the time of tackle. They could have kept talking to him. One officer decided that he needed to use violence now, now, now. They've got to stop doing that.

WHS
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Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

Postby WHS » March 30th, 2016, 4:29 pm

I don't think so. They arrived, spoke to him for less than a minute, then tackled and shot him. That may not be criminal, but it's bad policing and I think it's exactly what Freeman was talking about on deescalating.
I don't think the less-than-a-minute thing is necessarily all that telling - the cops arrived in media res after all - but yes, pretty much everyone up to and including Mike Freeman seems to think that tackle was an awful idea. I think it's hardly fair to call it "grasping at straws" -- unlike shootings, this sort of unnecessary force happens every day, and it surely erodes the relationship between the community and police.


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