Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

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maxbaby
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Re: The Police

Postby maxbaby » December 5th, 2014, 12:13 pm

Silophant wrote:
maxbaby wrote: Why do you keep calling this "murder"? He attacked the officer, started fighting him and tried to grab his gun.
You misspelled "He told the police officer to leave him alone and was strangled for his impudence" there. I realize that it's difficult to keep track of all the black men murdered by cops recently, but try to keep up.
On the Michael Brown "murder". I would bet my bottom dollar that if the roles were reversed and it was a black cop and a white kid or hell even a black cop and a black kid. You would have NEVER heard one peep out of this outside of the St Louis area. Good 'ol Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson or whatever their names are would never have given a crap about it. There would be no media face time. He only cares when it is white on black crime. I can't comment on the Eric issue. I know nothing about this but I will try and keep up by reading about it because the media gets everything correct.

maxbaby
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Re: The Police

Postby maxbaby » December 5th, 2014, 12:15 pm

Anondson wrote:
maxbaby wrote:Why do you keep calling this "murder"? He attacked the officer, started fighting him and tried to grab his gun. I don't care if you are black, white or purple. YOU WILL BE SHOT!!! The officer has every right to shoot if he is threatened in any way. This was just a stupid kid doing something extremely stupid. Just because he is unarmed doesn't mean he isn't dangerous. These idiots that walked onto the freeway. Who the hell do you think you are to inconvenience everybody just to spread your propaganda. If you want to protest that's absolutely fine but don't inconvenience everybody else while doing it. You people don't even know what the truth is. You're just reacting to hearsay and the media which usually blows everything out of proportion.
You aren't talking about the same instance of police overreaction as these protesters. You are thinking of Michael Brown in St. Louis. These protesters are protesting about Eric Garner in NYC (Staten Island) an asthmatic morbidly obese man who was wrestled and choked, contributing to his death, because he objected to police harassing him again. There is no hearsay in this case, there is video for all to watch of the choking and the nonchalance while Eric Garner died on the ground and the police refused to give aid to the dying man in their custody.
Thanks for the clarification. :oops:

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FISHMANPET
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Re: The Police

Postby FISHMANPET » December 5th, 2014, 12:21 pm

maxbaby wrote:
Silophant wrote:
maxbaby wrote: Why do you keep calling this "murder"? He attacked the officer, started fighting him and tried to grab his gun.
You misspelled "He told the police officer to leave him alone and was strangled for his impudence" there. I realize that it's difficult to keep track of all the black men murdered by cops recently, but try to keep up.
On the Michael Brown "murder". I would bet my bottom dollar that if the roles were reversed and it was a black cop and a white kid or hell even a black cop and a black kid. You would have NEVER heard one peep out of this outside of the St Louis area. Good 'ol Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson or whatever their names are would never have given a crap about it. There would be no media face time. He only cares when it is white on black crime. I can't comment on the Eric issue. I know nothing about this but I will try and keep up by reading about it because the media gets everything correct.
So you're saying cops killing black kids is OK if Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson make noise about it?

Or maybe they make noise because this is something that needs to have attention brought to it? And for what it's worth I haven't seen Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson say anything on this. I know they have, obviously, but the media coverage hasn't been about them. So I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. As soon as Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson open their mouths, everything they speak about magically becomes justified? Is the black community not allowed to have high profile people that speak for them? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here, so please explain why black people aren't allowed to speak up.

Snelbian
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Re: The Police

Postby Snelbian » December 5th, 2014, 12:36 pm

I'm not sure there's much explanation necessary. It's just that old racist meme about "but, but black on black crime!" and how black people are using "the race card" and are the real racists that keeps circling around and around again thanks to conservative media. It's a way for people to say that killing black people is probably justified and can't be racist because black people do it too (those savages!).

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FISHMANPET
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Re: The Police

Postby FISHMANPET » December 5th, 2014, 12:37 pm

maxbaby wrote: Why do you keep calling this "murder"? He attacked the officer, started fighting him and tried to grab his gun. I don't care if you are black, white or purple. YOU WILL BE SHOT!!! The officer has every right to shoot if he is threatened in any way. This was just a stupid kid doing something extremely stupid. Just because he is unarmed doesn't mean he isn't dangerous. These idiots that walked onto the freeway. Who the hell do you think you are to inconvenience everybody just to spread your propaganda. If you want to protest that's absolutely fine but don't inconvenience everybody else while doing it. You people don't even know what the truth is. You're just reacting to hearsay and the media which usually blows everything out of proportion.
I don't even think anyone can say at this point as a point of fact that Michael Brown was physically attacking Darren Wilson. As far as I know, all we have to go off of is his testimony to the grand jury (which is incredibly rare for the suspect to testify in his own defense in front of a grand jury). And for what it's worth, pictures of Wilson after the fact don't really cooberate Wilson's story, but I'm not going to go so far as saying that Wilson is wrong. So we can't just make blanket statements of fact about an event where the facts are unknowable. I know it's easier to vilify someone if you can say for a fact what did or didn't happen, but that's not the case with Michael Brown, so let's not pretend that it is.

And I'm also going to call you out for calling these marches "propaganda." Do you believe all people should have equal rights? Are civil rights for blacks just propaganda?

Viktor Vaughn
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Re: The Police

Postby Viktor Vaughn » December 5th, 2014, 12:39 pm

I think a lot of truth came through in this piece from the series written from the perspective of how the American Media would cover events if they happened in another country. Sometimes we get too close to things to see the big picture.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2 ... olice.html

maxbaby
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Re: The Police

Postby maxbaby » December 5th, 2014, 12:46 pm

On the Michael Brown "murder". I would bet my bottom dollar that if the roles were reversed and it was a black cop and a white kid or hell even a black cop and a black kid. You would have NEVER heard one peep out of this outside of the St Louis area. Good 'ol Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson or whatever their names are would never have given a crap about it. There would be no media face time. He only cares when it is white on black crime. I can't comment on the Eric issue. I know nothing about this but I will try and keep up by reading about it because the media gets everything correct.[/quote]

So you're saying cops killing black kids is OK if Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson make noise about it?

Or maybe they make noise because this is something that needs to have attention brought to it? And for what it's worth I haven't seen Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson say anything on this. I know they have, obviously, but the media coverage hasn't been about them. So I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. As soon as Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson open their mouths, everything they speak about magically becomes justified? Is the black community not allowed to have high profile people that speak for them? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here, so please explain why black people aren't allowed to speak up.[/quote]

I think you need to reread my post and no, black people have every right to speak up just like any other American citizen. I just don't see why when some blacks think they get the "short end of the stick" they need to go crazy and what I mean by crazy is rioting, looting and burning businesses down that strangely enough are black owned. I know this is a very small percentage but it's what you see thanks to the media and the above named big mouths adding fuel to the fire. They are so bias. Before you say it. No I am not racist. I'm a realist. In the Michael Brown case. If that officer in deed shot him in cold blood then yes lock him up and throw away the key. Along with ANY other crooked cop out there. I mean this bullshit needs to stop.

maxbaby
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Re: The Police

Postby maxbaby » December 5th, 2014, 12:50 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:
maxbaby wrote: Why do you keep calling this "murder"? He attacked the officer, started fighting him and tried to grab his gun. I don't care if you are black, white or purple. YOU WILL BE SHOT!!! The officer has every right to shoot if he is threatened in any way. This was just a stupid kid doing something extremely stupid. Just because he is unarmed doesn't mean he isn't dangerous. These idiots that walked onto the freeway. Who the hell do you think you are to inconvenience everybody just to spread your propaganda. If you want to protest that's absolutely fine but don't inconvenience everybody else while doing it. You people don't even know what the truth is. You're just reacting to hearsay and the media which usually blows everything out of proportion.
I don't even think anyone can say at this point as a point of fact that Michael Brown was physically attacking Darren Wilson. As far as I know, all we have to go off of is his testimony to the grand jury (which is incredibly rare for the suspect to testify in his own defense in front of a grand jury). And for what it's worth, pictures of Wilson after the fact don't really cooberate Wilson's story, but I'm not going to go so far as saying that Wilson is wrong. So we can't just make blanket statements of fact about an event where the facts are unknowable. I know it's easier to vilify someone if you can say for a fact what did or didn't happen, but that's not the case with Michael Brown, so let's not pretend that it is.

And I'm also going to call you out for calling these marches "propaganda." Do you believe all people should have equal rights? Are civil rights for blacks just propaganda?
Americans are Americans. We ALL should be treated equally even though we sadly never will be.

Snelbian
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Re: The Police

Postby Snelbian » December 5th, 2014, 12:50 pm

maxbaby wrote: I think you need to reread my post and no, black people have every right to speak up just like any other American citizen. I just don't see why when some blacks think they get the "short end of the stick" they need to go crazy and what I mean by crazy is rioting, looting and burning businesses down that strangely enough are black owned. I know this is a very small percentage but it's what you see thanks to the media and the above named big mouths adding fuel to the fire. They are so bias. Before you say it. No I am not racist. I'm a realist. In the Michael Brown case. If that officer in deed shot him in cold blood then yes lock him up and throw away the key. Along with ANY other crooked cop out there. I mean this bullshit needs to stop.
https://www.google.com/search?q=white+p ... 80&bih=800
Last edited by Snelbian on December 5th, 2014, 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

at40man
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Re: The Police

Postby at40man » December 5th, 2014, 12:51 pm

David Greene wrote:
at40man wrote:
David Greene wrote: In my faith tradition, it absolutely, absolutely is.
Don't mix up your faith tradition with the duties of the state. I'm Catholic, and it is my experience that when it comes to actually helping people, my Church both historically and presently has been far more effective at helping the downtrodden than government programs and as such I pour my time/talent/treasure into my church rather than place the burden of duty on my government.

Government is for Legal Justice.
Church is for Social Justice.
I am also Catholic. The concept of social sin is exactly what should point us to government having a responsibility to promote social justice. Harry Flynn said it best, "a budget is a moral document."
A budget absolutely is a moral document.

However, the very purpose of government isn't for social justice. It is for legal justice. When social justice and legal justice conflict with each other -- as they sometimes do -- then the government's duty is to come down on the side of legal justice.

This is what the Catholic Apologists site has to say on the matter:
The political left understands that compassionate-sounding Catholic language can be used to generate support among Catholics. To be sure, the use of Catholic terminology in the public square can be a very good thing, as it allows us to frame the debate. Yet the political activists are not using the terms in the same way, and most Catholics are too ignorant of the Church’s social doctrine to know the difference.

Sadly, this ambiguity is also found among some Church leaders in the field of social concerns, who can seem at least as committed to partisan politics—left or right—as they are to the Church’s actual social doctrine.
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articl ... t-or-right

EOst
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Re: The Police

Postby EOst » December 5th, 2014, 12:52 pm

The reason no-one makes a fuss about a black cop killing a white kid is that it almost never happens, and when it does, it's thoroughly investigated. If there were white kids routinely being shot by black cops with immediate efforts by the police to derail the investigation and blame the kids, there would be a lot more than riots.

Besides, there simply aren't that many black cops. Only 9% of the MPD is black, compared to around 20% of the city.

maxbaby
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Re: The Police

Postby maxbaby » December 5th, 2014, 1:00 pm

Snelbian wrote:
maxbaby wrote: I think you need to reread my post and no, black people have every right to speak up just like any other American citizen. I just don't see why when some blacks think they get the "short end of the stick" they need to go crazy and what I mean by crazy is rioting, looting and burning businesses down that strangely enough are black owned. I know this is a very small percentage but it's what you see thanks to the media and the above named big mouths adding fuel to the fire. They are so bias. Before you say it. No I am not racist. I'm a realist. In the Michael Brown case. If that officer in deed shot him in cold blood then yes lock him up and throw away the key. Along with ANY other crooked cop out there. I mean this bullshit needs to stop.
https://www.google.com/search?q=white+p ... 80&bih=800
I never said white people don't riot. Oh and most of those photos look like people celebrating a sports championship win.....A little excessively I would say.

Snelbian
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Re: The Police

Postby Snelbian » December 5th, 2014, 1:04 pm

I never said you claimed white people don't riot. I may have implied that the clear implication of your "realist" comments is that rioting is a black thing. But I didn't SAY it, so it doesn't count.

maxbaby
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Re: The Police

Postby maxbaby » December 5th, 2014, 1:10 pm

Snelbian wrote:I never said you claimed white people don't riot. I may have implied that the clear implication of your "realist" comments is that rioting is a black thing. But I didn't SAY it, so it doesn't count.
Ok. Moving on.

Viktor Vaughn
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Re: The Police

Postby Viktor Vaughn » December 5th, 2014, 1:12 pm

"I just don't see why when some blacks think they get the "short end of the stick" they need to go crazy and what I mean by crazy is rioting, looting and burning businesses down that strangely enough are black owned."

"I never said white people don't riot. Oh and most of those photos look like people celebrating a sports championship win.....A little excessively I would say".


Hmmm.. so rioting black people are going crazy and rioting white people are celebrating a little excessively?

LakeCharles
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Re: The Police

Postby LakeCharles » December 5th, 2014, 1:12 pm

As for sports riots, people don't get all moralistic about white people "destroying their own neighborhoods" even though they are rioting over a far less worthy cause.

White people riot over sports = No big deal
Black people riot over systematic oppression = Oh my god how could they?!?!

Snelbian
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Re: The Police

Postby Snelbian » December 5th, 2014, 1:13 pm

Viktor Vaughn wrote:"I just don't see why when some blacks think they get the "short end of the stick" they need to go crazy and what I mean by crazy is rioting, looting and burning businesses down that strangely enough are black owned."

"I never said white people don't riot. Oh and most of those photos look like people celebrating a sports championship win.....A little excessively I would say".


Hmmm.. so rioting black people are going crazy and rioting white people are celebrating a little excessively?
Because Al Sharpton.

Going back to the 35W thing, can I look forward to this kind of capitalist outrage the next time a major arterial in my neighborhood is shut down for a marathon? That happens several days a year on Summit, but I don't remember seeing the indignation that I assume was floating around here.
Last edited by Snelbian on December 5th, 2014, 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

VAStationDude
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Re: The Police

Postby VAStationDude » December 5th, 2014, 1:13 pm

maxbaby wrote:
Snelbian wrote:
maxbaby wrote: I think you need to reread my post and no, black people have every right to speak up just like any other American citizen. I just don't see why when some blacks think they get the "short end of the stick" they need to go crazy and what I mean by crazy is rioting, looting and burning businesses down that strangely enough are black owned. I know this is a very small percentage but it's what you see thanks to the media and the above named big mouths adding fuel to the fire. They are so bias. Before you say it. No I am not racist. I'm a realist. In the Michael Brown case. If that officer in deed shot him in cold blood then yes lock him up and throw away the key. Along with ANY other crooked cop out there. I mean this bullshit needs to stop.
https://www.google.com/search?q=white+p ... 80&bih=800
I never said white people don't riot. Oh and most of those photos look like people celebrating a sports championship win.....A little excessively I would say.
Oh so property destruction after a sporting event is just excessive celebration but when the root event is a cop killing it's rioting. Holding one race to a much tougher standard is pretty dang racist especially when their rage is rooted in something that actually matters.

maxbaby
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Re: The Police

Postby maxbaby » December 5th, 2014, 1:20 pm

To the last three posts. "SIGH"!

David Greene
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Re: The Police

Postby David Greene » December 5th, 2014, 1:25 pm

maxbaby wrote:[On the Michael Brown "murder". I would bet my bottom dollar that if the roles were reversed and it was a black cop and a white kid or hell even a black cop and a black kid. You would have NEVER heard one peep out of this outside of the St Louis area.
This is really close to a troll, but I'll try to explain it.

There is no pattern of young white men getting killed by cops. It happens, but it doesn't happen every 28 hours as it does for black men. So yes, there is a different standard when it comes to white cops killing black men. Color-blindness has been shown not to work. We need to actively root out the biases and excuses built into our systems. That means taking a much closer look when historically oppressed populations are involved.

That's just the way it's gotta be. White people have to get used to that.


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