Presidential Election 2016

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trigonalmayhem

Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby trigonalmayhem » February 8th, 2016, 2:44 pm

And now they've got Bill Clinton accusing Bernie supporters of sexism. Yes, *THAT* Bill Clinton. This is set to backfire spectacularly when people remember everything he's done.

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Tiller
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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby Tiller » February 8th, 2016, 3:20 pm

And for those that don't find losing the general election after slandering half the Democratic party as sexist enough to discuss, here's some inside baseball:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/h ... eup-218955
Hillary and Bill Clinton are so dissatisfied with their campaign’s messaging and digital operations they are considering staffing and strategy changes after what’s expected to be a loss in Tuesday’s primary here, according to a half-dozen people with direct knowledge of the situation.
If they win by making the Primaries about sexism, Ted Cruz is the only thing on this planet that could make me vote for a Clinton. This staff shake-up better clean the garbage out of her campaign.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby amiller92 » February 8th, 2016, 3:28 pm

You know what's totally worse than sexism? Being falsely accused of sexism. It's totally like racism that way.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby Tiller » February 8th, 2016, 4:08 pm

amiller92 wrote:You know what's totally worse than sexism? Being falsely accused of sexism. It's totally like racism that way.
You know what's totally worse than either? Giving the presidency to an actual sexist like Trump by splitting the Democratic Party with such unverifiable bullshit.

Coming from the same people who were unabashedly Racist towards Obama back in 2008.

If Bernie was black, we wouldn't be hearing about sexism, we would be hearing about he was a coke dealer and is supported by "thugs".

They tried slandering Bernie as a sexist months ago with that "shouting" thing. It failed because no one can seriously consider Bernie to be a sexist. So what do they do now? Make unverifiable claims with little to no evidence, that his supporters are just a rabid internet hate mob voting against her because she's a woman.

This is the result you are willing let happen.

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You'll reap what you sow.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby amiller92 » February 8th, 2016, 4:41 pm

Tiller wrote:Giving the presidency to an actual sexist like Trump by splitting the Democratic Party with such unverifiable bullshit.
You mean like denying that sexism is a factor in some criticism of Clinton and then stomping your feet and threatening to vote Trump?
If Bernie was black, we wouldn't be hearing about sexism, we would be hearing about he was a coke dealer and is supported by "thugs".
Which is why we're hearing about how Bernie controls the banks and hollywood and whatever other antisemitic tropes are out there?
They tried slandering Bernie as a sexist
Hold up. Exactly who has called Bernie sexist?
Make unverifiable claims with little to no evidence
Dude, not even Glen Greenwald claims there's no gendered harassment out there (btw, no one on the Bern train seems to even try to respond to the racist harassment). Of course there is.

Instead the arguments are (1) that behavior is not representative of Bernie supporters, much less Bernie, (2) it's not any different than the typical internet bad behavior, and (3) it's bad faith to mention it.

As to (1), I don't think I've seen anyone claim it's representative of Bernie supporters, just that there is an element out there. Which why its so weird to watch Bernie supporters dig in. Instead, they could be like Bernie (or at least his campaign) and disavow it.

As to (2), okay, could be. That's probably a factor, but it's pretty hard for us third parties, especially white men, to tell the actual recipients of the bad behavior that's its not happening to them. That's some patriarchal and racists bullshit.

As to (3), oh come on. Accept for even a moment that these women and people of color are actually experiencing what they say they are experiencing and take your offended pants off.

Anyway, this is a far better treatment of this subject than I'm capable of (and will come out more your way on the Bernie Bros too!): https://academeblog.org/2016/02/04/a-fe ... y-clinton/

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby acs » February 8th, 2016, 4:46 pm

Tiller wrote:
amiller92 wrote:You know what's totally worse than sexism? Being falsely accused of sexism. It's totally like racism that way.
You know what's totally worse than either? Giving the presidency to an actual sexist like Trump by splitting the Democratic Party with such unverifiable bullshit.

Coming from the same people who were unabashedly Racist towards Obama back in 2008.

If Bernie was black, we wouldn't be hearing about sexism, we would be hearing about he was a coke dealer and is supported by "thugs".

They tried slandering Bernie as a sexist months ago with that "shouting" thing. It failed because no one can seriously consider Bernie to be a sexist. So what do they do now? Make unverifiable claims with little to no evidence, that his supporters are just a rabid internet hate mob voting against her because she's a woman.

This is the result you are willing let happen.

Image

You'll reap what you sow.
I think it's funny how you believe nominating a left wing radical Bernie over a center left Hillary will make the democratic party more likely to win the election. Moderates like myself decide general elections, not drum banging communists or bible thumping evangelicals. You might as well hand the general election to the GOP if you nominate sanders, despite what you want to believe about that evil Hillary in your own little fantasy world. Go ahead and preach on, you'll reap what you sow.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby grant1simons2 » February 8th, 2016, 5:18 pm

A fantasy world where facts are true and numbers actually add up

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby LakeCharles » February 8th, 2016, 5:54 pm

So Tiller, your argument is that it is not possible that anyone who supports Bernie has been engaging in sexist behavior, and the fact that some people have claimed to be subject to sexist behavior is so upsetting to independents that they will vote for Trump instead of Hillary?

As usual, for me, Bernie has handled this well, and a vocal subset of his supporters has been obnoxious as hell about it.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby Tiller » February 8th, 2016, 6:35 pm

amiller92 wrote:
Tiller wrote:Giving the presidency to an actual sexist like Trump by splitting the Democratic Party with such unverifiable bullshit.
You mean like denying that sexism is a factor in some criticism of Clinton and then stomping your feet and threatening to vote Trump?
It's the fact that it has become a plank in Hillary's campaign. It's the fact that a relatively small, inevitable, and irrelevant thing is being construed and used in such a way to imply it's more important than it is by the Clinton campaign. When I turned on CNN this morning they were playing a clip of Bill Clinton on the trail in New Hampshire talking about this very issue.

Bernie's campaign isn't bringing up the anti-semitism which exists in whatever corners it does, just like Obama didn't run as "the black candidate". The Clintons, however, seem to be willing to stoop to any lows in their thirst for power. As it turns out, sexism (just like racism) are very serious charges among democratic and liberal circles. Socially ostracizing things -- at least in my circles. I don't know about yours.
amiller92 wrote:
If Bernie was black, we wouldn't be hearing about sexism, we would be hearing about he was a coke dealer and is supported by "thugs".
Which is why we're hearing about how Bernie controls the banks and hollywood and whatever other antisemitic tropes are out there?
This doesn't follow, since anti-semetism isn't as large of an issue in America as racism is, though I bet it sure is easy for you to forget about all the problematic racism from 2008 as a white man.
amiller92 wrote:
They tried slandering Bernie as a sexist
Hold up. Exactly who has called Bernie sexist?
http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-d ... ng-remark/



You could call it "An Artful Smear".
amiller92 wrote:
Make unverifiable claims with little to no evidence
Dude, not even Glen Greenwald claims there's no gendered harassment out there (btw, no one on the Bern train seems to even try to respond to the racist harassment). Of course there is.
Then I'm sure you can point out where I deny it exists. Same with you, Lake Charles. It's much easier to accuse a large nebulous group of people on the internet of pervasive sexism than a single person, because the latter is far easier to prove or disprove. That isn't the same thing as saying it never happens. You've skipped over the part where I compare it to how previously she tried to smear Bernie as sexist (and racist as well), and how she's adjusted her tactics.
amiller92 wrote:Instead the arguments are (1) that behavior is not representative of Bernie supporters, much less Bernie, (2) it's not any different than the typical internet bad behavior, and (3) it's bad faith to mention it.

As to (1), I don't think I've seen anyone claim it's representative of Bernie supporters, just that there is an element out there. Which why its so weird to watch Bernie supporters dig in. Instead, they could be like Bernie (or at least his campaign) and disavow it.
You're naive if you think it isn't being used as if it's representative of Bernie supporters. Nearly everyone disavows it (which is then used as further evidence, as in "look, even they agree it's a serious problem!", to slander the campaign), but it's still going to happen, as it's impossible to stop. It is also exacerbated by things like the controversial statemants from Lena Dunham, Gloria Steinem, and Madeleine Albright in support of Hillary, the pushback to which can handily be labeled sexism.
amiller92 wrote:As to (2), okay, could be. That's probably a factor, but it's pretty hard for us third parties, especially white men, to tell the actual recipients of the bad behavior that's its not happening to them. That's some patriarchal and racists bullshit.
No one is saying that nothing is happening, but keep on beating up that strawman. It has been pointed out, however, that a good portion of that bullshit comes from conservatives who also despise and troll Bernie and his supporters (and probably some other third parties). As it turns out, everyone uses the internet.
amiller92 wrote:As to (3), oh come on. Accept for even a moment that these women and people of color are actually experiencing what they say they are experiencing and take your offended pants off.
We're still not denying that it happens. It happening, however, doesn't justify the way it has been turned into a political football, which you are equivocating for. As to whether bringing it up is in bad faith, sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't.
amiller92 wrote:Anyway, this is a far better treatment of this subject than I'm capable of (and will come out more your way on the Bernie Bros too!): https://academeblog.org/2016/02/04/a-fe ... y-clinton/
I actually have that open in a tab waiting to be read, so I'll probably be doing that next.

One final thing I would like to mention is the before-and-after of this "BernieBro" thing with an anecdote. There's a large facebook group known as the "Bernie Sanders Dank Meme Stash" (BSDMS, not BDSM), where, as indicated in the name, people post dank memes.

Before the Clinton campaign picked up the issue of sexism and ran with it, there would be undeniably sexist posts. Things like a picture of Monica Lewinsky that says "I'm voting for Bernie Sanders because the Clintons left a bad taste in my mouth". When they popped up, there would always be a large contingent of Bernie suporters that would swamp the meme in opposition. And I'm talking about people spanning the spectrum, from stereotypical Tumblr users, to those you would jump to label as "BernieBros", that would report the given meme and tell-off the poster in the comments.

Afterwards? Sexist memes are still posted. People still pile on the OP. The difference? Increased infighting now that Clinton has politicized the issue, and a LOT of people are pissed at being labelled sexist while they've been constantly fighting sexism. I've yet to meet a single person IRL who supports Bernie and wasn't pissed about Clinton's bullshit. And you can bet that conservatives love this shit, since Hillary's smears and lies makes conservative smears and lies about Hillary more believable (and no, not everything negative about Hillary is conservative bullshit.)

Edit: moved quote boundary

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby David Greene » February 8th, 2016, 9:01 pm

acs wrote:Moderates like myself decide general elections, not drum banging communists
Where do you get this stuff?

How very 1980's.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby Chef » February 9th, 2016, 12:40 am

I just noticed that Sanders has been endorsed by both Keith Ellison and Jesse Ventura. With that sort of ideological spread, nothing can stop him.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby twinkess » February 9th, 2016, 9:12 am

Look, Hillary might or might not win in the general. If she is the nom I can hold my nose and vote for her. I was hoping Elizabeth Warren would have run but no such luck.

However Bernie has no chance in the general. The word "socialist" is still way too loaded. The day after the nominating convention you WILL see misleading ads with Bernie's voice/words superimposed over pictures of Hitler/Stalin. Obama Derangement Syndrome is NOTHING compared to what you will see with Bernie.

Why haven't you seen these attacks yet? So far the Cons have been holding fire on Bernie because they want him to be the nom:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... myra-adams
http://csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2016/ ... ie-Sanders

Bernie is only neck and neck with an opponent under withering fire from the Cons. Once they shift targets to him he is done.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby Nathan » February 9th, 2016, 9:20 am

I understand what you're trying to say, but the two likely nominees on the other side are just as conservative or extreme as he is liberal... both sides are extreme, both sides will have plenty of ammunition, and the fact of the matter is the largest group of voting age people in the us right now are millennials. Millennials tend to be liberal, love Bernie and are cool with democratic socialism. They are also the most over educated demographic in the country, if you think a few attack ads are going to sway them, when they can look at super successful countries in the EU as case studies, I don't think so. Bernie can get the young vote out, Hillary can't. She'd easily be defeated by traditional politics because she's got blood on her hands, the attacks will be swift, millennials won't be excited to vote... republican shoo in.

*Millennials also tend to not use traditional media so the establishment is going to have to dig hard to convince them not to skip ads, and watch tv... this is not going to be a typical population base election if Bernie wins the nomination.
Last edited by Nathan on February 9th, 2016, 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby amiller92 » February 9th, 2016, 9:23 am

LakeCharles wrote:As usual, for me, Bernie has handled this well, and a vocal subset of his supporters has been obnoxious as hell about it.
That's really it. And then add on that some are now getting outraged that women who support her are arguing that women should support women.

I mean, I get not finding that argument persuasive, but I don't get being angry about it.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby amiller92 » February 9th, 2016, 9:35 am

Tiller wrote:The Clintons, however, seem to be willing to stoop to any lows in their thirst for power.
I don't think we can have a productive conversation if you think "pointing out that sexism is a thing, even within the democratic party" is "stooping to any lows."
No one is saying that nothing is happening, but keep on beating up that strawman.
It can't both be "just the internet" and be happening. The claim is not that there are some bad actors in the Bernie crowd. It's that there are more bad actors in the Bernie crowd than in general.
a good portion of that bullshit comes from conservatives
That's a mighty quick whipsaw from "strawman" to "it's not happening."

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby amiller92 » February 9th, 2016, 9:43 am

Nathan wrote:I understand what you're trying to say, but the two likely nominees on the other side are just as conservative or extreme as he is liberal... both sides are extreme, both sides will have plenty of ammunition, and the fact of the matter is the largest group of voting age people in the us right now are millennials. Millennials tend to be liberal, love Bernie and are cool with democratic socialism. They are also the most over educated demographic in the country, if you think a few attack ads are going to sway them, when they can look at super successful countries in the EU as case studies, I don't think so. Bernie can get the young vote out, Hillary can't. She'd easily be defeated by traditional politics because she's got blood on her hands, the attacks will be swift, millennials won't be excited to vote... republican shoo in.

*Millennials also tend to not use traditional media so the establishment is going to have to dig hard to convince them not to skip ads, and watch tv... this is not going to be a typical population base election if Bernie wins the nomination.
It's not millenials being persuaded that's the issue. It's "socialism" and "higher taxes" that will drive old people turn out.

As you say, maybe he offsets that with young people turn out, but those are pretty powerful attacks for which he's not going to have an answer because they are true (and he's honest about them). Walter Mondale learned what happens when you're honest with people about the need to raise their taxes and I think the same will happen to Bernie.

It's an interesting race, because before people started to think Bernie was viable, the GOTV strategy for Hillary with young people was going to be about being the historic first female president. Now she's had to deploy that early and some of those young people are threatening to stay home.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby FISHMANPET » February 9th, 2016, 9:43 am

It's a rather patronizing view of feminism that says that literally every woman would be better than any single man. And when someone is told to support Hilary because she's a woman, that's whats being said. It's a view that's fine with feminists my mom's age (early 60s) but not "millenials" like my wife (29).

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby Didier » February 9th, 2016, 9:48 am

Nathan wrote:The largest group of voting age people in the us right now are millennials. Millennials tend to be liberal, love Bernie and are cool with democratic socialism.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby mplsjaromir » February 9th, 2016, 10:01 am

David Axelrod throwing shade at the Hillary campaign:

https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status ... 1797089280

Basically in 2008 Hillary relied too much on groups that generally vote for the GOP. The Obama coalition relied heavily on young people, a group Hillary is horrendous at courting. For every time Hillary dabs on Ellen, she brags about being endorsed by a war criminal during a debate.

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Re: Presidential Election 2016

Postby trigonalmayhem » February 9th, 2016, 11:44 am

The centrist faction within the Democratic party has drifted too far to the right and too deeply into corporate pockets for the progressive faction to stomach any longer. If they shut Bernie and the youth out with their slimy do-anything-to-win tactics they are quite literally destroying the future of the party. At best you discourage a whole generation of voters who now feel their vote doesn't matter in a rigged process. At worst you actually splinter the party with all the younger voters going to a new party and the older ones who will steadily die off sticking with the existing one.


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