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LakeCharles
Foshay Tower
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Location: Kingfield

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby LakeCharles » August 5th, 2015, 11:00 am

My grandpa lived in a condo throughout the 90s. As did my other grandpa. And an aunt. So yes, your perception is that they were rare. But when everyone else's perception is different than yours, isn't it usually better to assume "I'm wrong" rather than "Everyone else is wrong and I am right"?

min-chi-cbus
Capella Tower
Posts: 2869
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 9:19 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby min-chi-cbus » August 5th, 2015, 11:05 am

My grandpa lived in a condo throughout the 90s. As did my other grandpa. And an aunt. So yes, your perception is that they were rare. But when everyone else's perception is different than yours, isn't it usually better to assume "I'm wrong" rather than "Everyone else is wrong and I am right"?
So did my grandparents....

I don't feel I'm wrong, and you haven't proven me wrong. I'm still struggling to identify what I said that was so flammable that it prompted a dozen+ replies. If condos are so damn awesome, how come very few are being built? I'm more curious about the why than the what. At the end of the day my seemingly anti-condo stance is more reflective of the marketplace.....I'm just curious why, and don't care if nobody else thinks like that.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1983
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby amiller92 » August 5th, 2015, 11:16 am

I think you have a very specific view of what a condo is that doesn't match reality. Condos are not a new concept.
Condos aren't new at all, but they're RELATIVELY new to the Midwest (relative to the coasts, for instance, where condo living was much more prevalent).
Do you think that the proportion of condos here vs the coasts is really any different than the overall proportion of multi-unit housing? We obviously have way fewer people living in dense urban cores, and more living in single family homes, which would include fewer urban condos, but I don't really have any idea if condos are under represented in our mulit-unit housing.

5th Ave Guy
Landmark Center
Posts: 212
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Location: North Loop

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby 5th Ave Guy » August 5th, 2015, 11:17 am

Let's face it, condos are a major luxury -- they're insanely expensive on a $$/SF basis and it's no wonder they're built more sparingly and/or in larger, more expensive or "hot" (speculative) markets. Condos in the Midwest (or South) never made a ton of sense to me, simply because of the economics of it: you could buy a home with 2X the SF and have a yard for the price of a condo. So I get why most people don't see the value in that here or in this region. I also get why there are SOME condos, since there is enough of a marketplace for them here to fill up a few buildings per cycle, and there will be some people who love the downtown lifestyle but want to own the equity of their home.......but it's not going to be as mainstream as other places.
Here's my original argument again. Read it carefully. I'm saying that condo living isn't as practical in the Midwest and in the Twin Cities as it is in other, more expensive markets. I even say that condos DO exist here, and there are some sub-markets where they make more sense, but they're not as mainstream here compared to other cities. I didn't deny the existence of condos prior to 2005. I didn't say they were unheard of (I said practically unheard of, relative to today, for example).

I'm not really sure what the argument is, but I'll continue to defend mine. I think you guys just like to nitpick/argue.
I guess I don't get why the original argument makes sense just for a city like Minneapolis. In other, higher end markets, all real estate is more expensive and I would think the condo to house relative price structure is even more skewed in those areas (meaning you could get even MORE house, yard, garage, etc. for the condo price).

In the end, I think condos make sense where there's density. That's been increasing here so I think we'll continue to see increasing demand for condos, like we have now.

min-chi-cbus
Capella Tower
Posts: 2869
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 9:19 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby min-chi-cbus » August 5th, 2015, 11:24 am

I think you have a very specific view of what a condo is that doesn't match reality. Condos are not a new concept.
Condos aren't new at all, but they're RELATIVELY new to the Midwest (relative to the coasts, for instance, where condo living was much more prevalent).
Do you think that the proportion of condos here vs the coasts is really any different than the overall proportion of multi-unit housing? We obviously have way fewer people living in dense urban cores, and more living in single family homes, which would include fewer urban condos, but I don't really have any idea if condos are under represented in our mulit-unit housing.
Yeah, I guess I do. I could be wrong, but that was my thinking.

min-chi-cbus
Capella Tower
Posts: 2869
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 9:19 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby min-chi-cbus » August 5th, 2015, 11:28 am

Let's face it, condos are a major luxury -- they're insanely expensive on a $$/SF basis and it's no wonder they're built more sparingly and/or in larger, more expensive or "hot" (speculative) markets. Condos in the Midwest (or South) never made a ton of sense to me, simply because of the economics of it: you could buy a home with 2X the SF and have a yard for the price of a condo. So I get why most people don't see the value in that here or in this region. I also get why there are SOME condos, since there is enough of a marketplace for them here to fill up a few buildings per cycle, and there will be some people who love the downtown lifestyle but want to own the equity of their home.......but it's not going to be as mainstream as other places.
Here's my original argument again. Read it carefully. I'm saying that condo living isn't as practical in the Midwest and in the Twin Cities as it is in other, more expensive markets. I even say that condos DO exist here, and there are some sub-markets where they make more sense, but they're not as mainstream here compared to other cities. I didn't deny the existence of condos prior to 2005. I didn't say they were unheard of (I said practically unheard of, relative to today, for example).

I'm not really sure what the argument is, but I'll continue to defend mine. I think you guys just like to nitpick/argue.
I guess I don't get why the original argument makes sense just for a city like Minneapolis. In other, higher end markets, all real estate is more expensive and I would think the condo to house relative price structure is even more skewed in those areas (meaning you could get even MORE house, yard, garage, etc. for the condo price).

In the end, I think condos make sense where there's density. That's been increasing here so I think we'll continue to see increasing demand for condos, like we have now.
I'm not trying to single Minneapolis out, but it's the city most of us care most about. I agree though that density, traffic, city size, etc. is a driver for condo development, or at least it drives housing values, which drives condo development.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1983
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby amiller92 » August 5th, 2015, 11:36 am

And I think they are driven by two completely different, polarizing priorities: the condo boom driven by excess -- over-leveraging by banks and home owners, and the notion of guaranteed (6%-7% annualized) returns in a marketplace that was desperate to ride any kind of wave it could find
Those things obviously drove some of the boom, but so did all of the things you mention below. Moreover, today, buying may well be cheaper (especially after taxes) than renting in an especially tight rental market. Is renting still virtuous conservation?

Anyway, the downtown condo market is booming again (sales, not construction). Is that because excess is back?
I don't expect you to agree with me, but my opinion is that condos make less sense in the Midwest region and any region like it where the cost of housing is still quite affordable and achievable for most people looking for home ownership, and as such it's not going to be as popular of a living choice until certain economic factors dictate change.
Which factors? Surely sky-high rents in very similar apartments has to be one of them.
So if developers are sort of gun-shy right now and they're saying that condos have to be selling for a least $225K-$250K
Those prices are on the low end for downtown condos, and would be way cheaper than the rent for a 2 bedroom apartment in buildings like LPM, Dock Street Flats, Soo Line, etc. (Rough estimate of a mortgage payment on a $225,000 loan is $1,100 vs rents for an LPM studio starting at $1,438)

You also generally cannot buy a single family home in south Minneapolis for that price range (you can, but it's going to be a less desirable area and/or need major work).

You're absolutely right that housing prices are a limiting factor. I just think that the rental market for very similar rental homes - apartments - is also a big factor, and one that suggests that more condos will be coming.
In SF, condos are an affordable way to live and are cheaper to buy than any comparable single-family home.
See, this is where you lose me. Both the houses and the condos in San Francisco cost way more than here.
I think once rents get closer to that equilibrium where the cost to rent is at or above the cost developers require to build condos profitably, condos will become hot again.
Okay, maybe we aren't really disagreeing then.

David Greene
IDS Center
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Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby David Greene » August 5th, 2015, 11:46 am

You also generally cannot buy a single family home in south Minneapolis for that price range (you can, but it's going to be a less desirable area and/or need major work).
For $250k? You most certainly can. It will be a small house but it won't be a craphole in an "undesirable" area.

BTW, I do not think there are any "undesirable" areas in Minneapolis at all but even if one eliminates the parts of Minneapolis traditionally considered "undesirable" by ignorant suburbanites, you can still find very modestly-priced houses in south Minneapolis. They won't be on a lake but they won't be that far from water, either.

mnmike
Wells Fargo Center
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Joined: June 2nd, 2012, 11:01 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mnmike » August 5th, 2015, 11:57 am

You also generally cannot buy a single family home in south Minneapolis for that price range (you can, but it's going to be a less desirable area and/or need major work).
For $250k? You most certainly can. It will be a small house but it won't be a craphole in an "undesirable" area.

BTW, I do not think there are any "undesirable" areas in Minneapolis at all but even if one eliminates the parts of Minneapolis traditionally considered "undesirable" by ignorant suburbanites, you can still find very modestly-priced houses in south Minneapolis. They won't be on a lake but they won't be that far from water, either.

Actually, 250 doesn't really get you that much in south Minneapolis anymore in the way of SFH! Especially west of 35 and north of 54th street! Only 18 active listings in that area right now that are not "distressed properties" (which are not always easily financed and often need a lot of work). But yes, you can find one still, for sure.

And I am sorry, you don't have to be "ignorant" to not find north Minneapolis or parts of south minneapolis "desirable". There are some very real issues in those areas...and ignoring them as the perception problems of suburbanites only makes them worse, and certainly does not contribute to any solution. Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
Last edited by mnmike on August 5th, 2015, 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

David Greene
IDS Center
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby David Greene » August 5th, 2015, 12:02 pm


mnmike
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mnmike » August 5th, 2015, 12:05 pm

That would be one of the 18. If you saw my earlier comment that was there about 10 seconds I had my MLS search reversed between exclude or include "distressed" properties:) Yeah you can sure find a home in that range, but your options are becoming more limited. Aaand this is way off topic:) lol. Sorry for contributing to that.
Last edited by mnmike on August 5th, 2015, 12:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

mplsjaromir
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mplsjaromir » August 5th, 2015, 12:06 pm

720 sq feet.

seanrichardryan
IDS Center
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Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby seanrichardryan » August 5th, 2015, 12:07 pm

This thread is a useless piece of garbage.
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

mnmike
Wells Fargo Center
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Joined: June 2nd, 2012, 11:01 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mnmike » August 5th, 2015, 12:23 pm

Still off topic, but more on topic...cant we just plant grass on this block and call it a day for now!??

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1983
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby amiller92 » August 5th, 2015, 12:29 pm

You also generally cannot buy a single family home in south Minneapolis for that price range (you can, but it's going to be a less desirable area and/or need major work).
For $250k? You most certainly can. It will be a small house but it won't be a craphole in an "undesirable" area.
Did I say "undesirable" or "craphole?"

You can get houses in that price range, but if you want more than one bathroom or a kitchen that's been updated in the last two decades, it will be difficult to find.

In other words, a home that is a likely substitute for a downtown condo in south Minneapolis will likely run you more than $300,000.

But you're right, there is are single family homes available at a huge range of price points across the city.

ETA: Sorry, I'll give it a rest.

LakeCharles
Foshay Tower
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Location: Kingfield

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby LakeCharles » August 5th, 2015, 12:35 pm

You also generally cannot buy a single family home in south Minneapolis for that price range (you can, but it's going to be a less desirable area and/or need major work).
For $250k? You most certainly can. It will be a small house but it won't be a craphole in an "undesirable" area.

BTW, I do not think there are any "undesirable" areas in Minneapolis at all but even if one eliminates the parts of Minneapolis traditionally considered "undesirable" by ignorant suburbanites, you can still find very modestly-priced houses in south Minneapolis. They won't be on a lake but they won't be that far from water, either.

Actually, 250 doesn't really get you that much in south Minneapolis anymore in the way of SFH! Especially west of 35 and north of 54th street! Only 18 active listings in that area right now that are not "distressed properties" (which are not always easily financed and often need a lot of work). But yes, you can find one still, for sure.

And I am sorry, you don't have to be "ignorant" to not find north Minneapolis or parts of south minneapolis "desirable". There are some very real issues in those areas...and ignoring them as the perception problems of suburbanites only makes them worse, and certainly does not contribute to any solution. Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
Between 42nd and 54th St east of 35W has 80 some houses for under 250k. I mean obviously it's subjective, but do people really find say 48th & Chicago a horrible neighborhood? Cause if so what makes a nice neighborhood?

David Greene
IDS Center
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Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby David Greene » August 5th, 2015, 12:40 pm

720 sq feet.
Well, yeah. It's a bungalow (of sorts). I *said* it would be small! :)

Looking outside SW Minneapolis, there is a TON of stuff. BTW, foreclosures aren't necessarily bad houses.

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/20 ... /?view=map

OMG, Milwaukee Ave.! And it's not even a foreclosure.

mnmike
Wells Fargo Center
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Joined: June 2nd, 2012, 11:01 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mnmike » August 5th, 2015, 12:41 pm

Between 42nd and 54th St east of 35W has 80 some houses for under 250k. I mean obviously it's subjective, but do people really find say 48th & Chicago a horrible neighborhood? Cause if so what makes a nice neighborhood?
Hate to continue this...but the entirety of south Minneapolis only has 136 active listings with no offers that fit that criteria, and that includes distressed properties/auction/foreclosures. I don't think many are considering 48th and Chicago to be one of the "undesirable" parts of Minneapolis...that is actually a good area to find some more affordable homes, and over toward Minnehaha falls as well!
Last edited by mnmike on August 5th, 2015, 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mnmike
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1092
Joined: June 2nd, 2012, 11:01 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mnmike » August 5th, 2015, 12:43 pm

720 sq feet.
Well, yeah. It's a bungalow (of sorts). I *said* it would be small! :)

Looking outside SW Minneapolis, there is a TON of stuff. BTW, foreclosures aren't necessarily bad houses.

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/20 ... /?view=map

OMG, Milwaukee Ave.! And it's not even a foreclosure.
That house is already pending. You missed it! ha

David Greene
IDS Center
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Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby David Greene » August 5th, 2015, 12:47 pm

Did I say "undesirable" or "craphole?"
"Less desirable" and "major work." But yeah, ok, you didn't say "craphole." :)
You can get houses in that price range, but if you want more than one bathroom or a kitchen that's been updated in the last two decades, it will be difficult to find.
I found some pretty easily.
In other words, a home that is a likely substitute for a downtown condo in south Minneapolis will likely run you more than $300,000.
What do you consider a likely substitute? A house is a totally different thing from a condo. If you want the latest fashions, ugly granite countertops, etc., sure, it's gonna cost you. Our kitchen is probably 25 years old. It's not great but it's functional. Someday we'll update it. That's what you do with houses.

I'm actually genuinely interested in what folks here think people want in a SFH. I hear lots of talk here and elsewhere that there are no affordable SFHs in (south) Minneapolis but whenever I look, it's just not true. What do people expect to get in a starter home? If you want something fancy, sorry, ya gotta go to the 'burbs where the land is cheap and the driving is expensive. :)


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