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Theories

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 5:24 pm
by Squidward
Mod Note: To preserve the historicity of the Rumors: A Historical Record of Mystery thread, this will be the new home for conversations that are... of that nature, but not directly related to The Consortium Experience of 2014.

Hello, yes I do agree that DT MPLS deserves architecturally iconic buildings - perhaps even a supertall - but let's remind ourselves, we are in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It is a very nice medium-sized city here, but our metro does not have 20 million people in it, nor droves of job hunters or tourists, nor is it the #1 destination for foreign investment. We see amazing skyscrapers going up around the world and visualize similar projects in our downtown core, but get disappointed by the lack of appeal in our reality.

I have an inkling that the big construction companies like United, Ryan, and Opus have done their market research and found that there is too much risk with building, say, an 800 ft spec tower, which comes with more square footage: more apartments to sell, more office space to lease, etc. There just might not be that kind of demand at the moment. In addition, if you were a large national investor, and Opus told you about a project in downtown Minneapolis, you would perform due diligence and may eventually bet your $ in a larger city. Just speculating, but I am sure our hometown construction cos have tried to attract investors and partners to some avail, and due to risk aversion, the resulting 365 Nicollet is what those involved in the process were comfortable with, especially with the Great Recession so fresh in our minds. I do not think these cos desire to create eyesores, as it would hurt their brands. Lets not point fingers, but accept that we live in the Twin Cities, which may be one of the best places I have ever lived in. And who knows? In 20 years our metro may be home to 4-5 million people, and a larger economy may support the construction of taller, more significant high-density projects.

Also, parking podiums exist because digging costs a lot!

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 6:12 pm
by MS3
I don't really agree squidward. There are many cities in the U.S. That are no bigger than the twin cities population-wise and have far superior skylines then we do. Minneapolis has three towers close to 800 feet and they were beneficial to Minneapolis which has the demand and interest to fill them. However, now the city runs every interested developer out of town who takes interest in U.S. Keys tower in Cleveland is a prime example, it was supposed to be here but the city wouldnt allow it. It was too tall. "We don't want to dishonor our IDS" was the reason quoted, We got the Wells Fargo Tower instead which I find to be an incredibly beautiful architectural building so I'm not complaining.. Which ironically is a foot shorter than the IDS not including the store check on top of the IDS. it's the city that is running developers out of here not the lack of businesses or size of our metro. There's lots of interest in Minneapolis, tons of it, including a 1000 room convention center hotel but the city doesn't find any of it "profitable" like other cities do and that's why they get these things built and we don't. We'd rather spend money running these developers out of here. Minneapolis doesn't want a large tall dramatic skyline they want more of a "Under 30 story" mid rise businesses an apartment complexes. Believe it or not demand does not have that much to do with it like so many peoples they seem to think so. When the mall of America with proposed it was said that it would be in a complete disaster is flop. It is not one of the top tourist attractions in the world and it's still growing bigger and bigger. I've been delivering construction equipment for years and years and I've talked to so many people developers architects construction workers etc. etc. bottom line will alway be this.. Build it and the people will come don't build it and they won't come. Minneapolis chooses the latter like I said and has far less to do with "risks and demand". He had people seem to think so on this forum.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 6:48 pm
by Nick
Disagree that there are many cities in the U.S. JMO

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 7:18 pm
by Silophant
Except for the Wells Fargo tower 30 years ago, is there any evidence whatsoever that developers are clamoring to build taller buildings here but are being shot down by City Hall?

(Note: Duval was shot down based on not having any discernable financials, not because his proposal was too tall.)

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 7:19 pm
by Nathan
I also disagree that good design costs an arm and a leg.

What are the dominant design features here? One flat dimensionless panel of cast concrete running up the front that doesn't culminate in anything at the top or from the looks of it lead to a door or anything at the street level, some staggered balconies, and some randomly placed materials (lipstick) on the parking podium (pig)? Come on I'm not asking for a super tall or a zaha hadid, I'm asking for something moderately inspired... an interesting use of color? Slightly better materials at the ground levels at least? Entrances that flow and make sense? I'm not looking to break the bank, I'm not pretending this is Manhatten or Dubai, but sometimes I feel like I'm taking crazy pills on here!

*I'm not implying one bit it needs to be taller, I think it's a good height, I even think it's a good shape. I take issue with the parking podium and the boring cheap exterior cladding concept. Especially in a vital location.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 7:34 pm
by MS3
Silophant wrote:Except for the Wells Fargo tower 30 years ago, is there any evidence whatsoever that developers are clamoring to build taller buildings here but are being shot down by City Hall?

(Note: Duval was shot down based on not having any discernable financials, not because his proposal was too tall.)
I don't know of any others with certainty, but I was told Best Buy was very interested in the downtown location in Minneapolis and went to Bloomington instead and so was medtronic or whatever they're called in Moundsview I believe.
The Cappella tower was supposed to be over 1100 feet tall but Minneapolis wouldn't allow it.. Yet there was no reason to cut that building down in height the tenants were all lined up any the financing was in place.
I can't remember the guys name that used to post on here something banker or banker something, but he knew of all the developers and potential tenants that lost interest in Minneapolis.
We have a great city with a lot of potential. Reminds me of Philadelphia when they had restrictions on height and strict building codes for some reason or other. The city lifted the codes and exploded with developers business and tenants over the last decade or two.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 7:37 pm
by Nathan
Best buy is in Richfield and Medtronic is in Fridley.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 7:39 pm
by grant1simons2
But we don't have a height limit in the core. If we did it would be public information. The city was very ready to allow (or did allow) The Nicollet which would have been 656'. By the way, that can still happen. The architects own all the rights to the drawings.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 7:55 pm
by FISHMANPET
MS3 wrote:
Silophant wrote: I can't remember the guys name that used to post on here something banker or banker something, but he knew of all the developers and potential tenants that lost interest in Minneapolis.
This was literally a hoax by a single person (from Milwaukee I think?) across multiple forums.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 8:14 pm
by MS3
Nathan wrote:Best buy is in Richfield and Medtronic is in Fridley.
Yes thank you. However, neither one are in downtown Minneapolis. And I was referring to the Medtronic off 35W where the former bridges golf course was in Moundsview.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 8:18 pm
by MS3
grant1simons2 wrote:But we don't have a height limit in the core. If we did it would be public information. The city was very ready to allow (or did allow) The Nicollet which would have been 656'. By the way, that can still happen. The architects own all the rights to the drawings.
I'm not aware of any height restrictions in downtown Minneapolis, so I'm not sure why that keeps getting brought up. however if there is a height restriction, I would bet with confidence Its 1' shorter then the IDS.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 8:33 pm
by MNdible
MS3 wrote:I don't know of any others with certainty, but I was told Best Buy was very interested in the downtown location in Minneapolis and went to Bloomington instead and so was medtronic or whatever they're called in Moundsview I believe.
The Cappella tower was supposed to be over 1100 feet tall but Minneapolis wouldn't allow it.. Yet there was no reason to cut that building down in height the tenants were all lined up any the financing was in place.
I can't remember the guys name that used to post on here something banker or banker something, but he knew of all the developers and potential tenants that lost interest in Minneapolis.
Just so we're clear, can you provide a source for anything in the above paragraph? Aside from linking to the internet hoax, of course.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 8:44 pm
by Wedgeguy
I have no doubt that Best Buy and Medtronic looked at the downtown as an option for their headquarters. But both chose suburban campuses where they could easily expand as their needs grew. Medtronic probably did the right thing with going to Fridley. As they have several different buildings with different functions, similar to 3M. Best Buy should have come downtown as their attempt at a campus came crashing down during one of the recessions and the buy online thing began. Much of their campus is now filled with US Bank offices. There was no need for separate buildings for Best Buy, they could easily have build one tower, but due to the taking of the Walser auto dealership land they spread out so they could justify the taking of that land. Best Buy would have been a great company to have had downtown, as what their employees want is really all downtown to start with.

In all honesty, This should be the site for the future US Bank Headquarters. While they may have a stadium named after them, they have no real Headquarter tower that stands out here in the city. You would not even know that the Tower on the mall is their headquarters. With all of the office space that they fill all over the city and burbs, they have the makings of a great tower here across from the library. But find someone other than Opus to develop it.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 8:51 pm
by grant1simons2
Medtronic has been in Fridley since the 70s and Best Buy decided to destroy a neighborhood in favor of parking and highway access.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 9:09 pm
by acs
grant1simons2 wrote:But we don't have a height limit in the core. If we did it would be public information. The city was very ready to allow (or did allow) The Nicollet which would have been 656'. By the way, that can still happen. The architects own all the rights to the drawings.
The Nicollet makes this whole situation even more maddening. We know Opus has the ambition and expertise to design and build something beautiful like that and for whatever reason they just won't, even on the most prime block they still own.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 9:23 pm
by MS3
The biggest reason is the city of Minneapolis. They don't want height, and they run those proposals and developers out of town. Minnespolis is an easy city to build in, and very welcoming if the building is under 30 stories.
And for the last time I'm not referring to Medtronic in Fridley I'm referring to medtronic on coral sea Ne In Mounds view off 35w and 85th sve I believe. It's my understanding that they're first choice to build was a tower in Minneapolis however instead they were "run out if town" and buildt 3-10 story massive boxes in Moundsview Minnesota. I'm not 100% sure on this But it's my understanding it would've been a tower of significant height but Minneapolis wouldn't allow it. And no I have no proof of this. it this was some 10 years ago. Same with Best Buy. Whether this is true or false it's hard to believe otherwise if you look at the track record in Minneapolis since the early 90s.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 10:33 pm
by Nathan
Sounds to me like they wanted a lot of subsidies and they didn't get them, so they moved to cities that do have height restrictions and had to build smaller projects because they are greedy corporations that just care about the bottom line and not helping pay back into the community that has built the infrastructure around them because they are somehow doing the city a favor.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 10:36 pm
by seanrichardryan
I don't know about their greed, but they got 23m in TIF from Mounds View.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 10:45 pm
by Wedgeguy
The suburbs were willing to give away, with hopes that it would help spur future development and increase their tax base. Not sure if Mounds View got the bang for their buck with other tax worthy developments that helped to make the TIF worth it. While the BB campus was some what a bust, it did open up the possibilities of what can be done when you find new uses for under utilized land, Menard's, Honda and Audi dealerships new and expansion, some hotels. Nothing more for office development that I'm aware of. In Richfield you pretty much need to tear down to create new developments. I think the value of the Best Buy campus is no where what it was when it was built.

Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Posted: February 29th, 2016, 10:48 pm
by Silophant
MS3 wrote:The biggest reason is the city of Minneapolis. They don't want height, and they run those proposals and developers out of town. Minnespolis is an easy city to build in, and very welcoming if the building is under 30 stories.
And for the last time I'm not referring to Medtronic in Fridley I'm referring to medtronic on coral sea Ne In Mounds view off 35w and 85th sve I believe. It's my understanding that they're first choice to build was a tower in Minneapolis however instead they were "run out if town" and buildt 3-10 story massive boxes in Moundsview Minnesota. I'm not 100% sure on this But it's my understanding it would've been a tower of significant height but Minneapolis wouldn't allow it. And no I have no proof of this. it this was some 10 years ago. Same with Best Buy. Whether this is true or false it's hard to believe otherwise if you look at the track record in Minneapolis since the early 90s.
Correct. This is why no building above 29 stories has been built in Minneapolis since the early 90s, except for 4Marq, LPM, The Carlyle, Target Plaza, 50 South Sixth, Ameriprise Financial, and US Bancorp Center.