Crime

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LakeCharles
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Re: Crime

Postby LakeCharles » February 26th, 2018, 3:18 pm

As someone who works on the corner discussed (Hennepin & 5th), waits for a bus on the corner daily, and walks to or past the library at least once a week, this all seems overblown. Granted, I am a man, with all the associated privileges, but still, the article is hyperbolic, and mostly incorrect.

The article posits that the poor are simply unmotivated, because "Minnesota gives them everything." It says the current council is somehow unaware that there are lots of jobs downtown. It insinuates that we should be jailing those who "bother suburban people," or are disrespectful. I am happy none of them are in charge anymore (Hoch, Johnson, etc.).

amiller92
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Re: Crime

Postby amiller92 » February 26th, 2018, 3:20 pm

I don't understand what you don't understand. You believe that downtown crime is a problem despite there being essentially no evidence that it is. So do certain people quoted in that article.

I'm sorry but that article is a joke. But if you want to find a problem in it, it's this "The Warehouse District, notably, has fewer than 500 residents."

"Downtown Crime" is and was an attempt to protect the "conservative" members of the city council from more progressive challengers. Couple that with people unhappy that there are poors using transit and you've got a narrative.

I mean:
Hoch, who successfully activated parts of Hennepin Avenue that had been derelict for years
Come on.

grrdanko
Nicollet Mall
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Re: Crime

Postby grrdanko » February 27th, 2018, 10:11 pm

mplsjaromir wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 1:54 pm
The article offers a great history of the area, very enlightening.

I think what it comes down and what the article showed that rich people want the area to be nicer. But those folks haven't grappled with the fact that the US is a low tax jurisdiction (25% of GDP and falling). If you want your stroll to your live theater performance to feel like Paris (47.9%), Brussels (47.9&), Copenhagen (50.8%) or heck even Toronto (39.8%) you're gonna have to give up the extremely favorable tax environment. Not to say that some US cities have created pockets of vitality that keep the ruffians in parity to those of greater means.

I don't know how much time you've spent in Brussels.
They definitely have a street crime problem. Violent crime is much lower than Minneapolis, but muggings, purse snatching and other similar crimes are way more common. Much of central Brussels feels to be more dangerous than Hennepin Avenue.

I like Brussels. It's one of my favorite places in the world. This just goes to show that low level street crime and vitality can exist together.

I think as a city we need to focus more on the vitality part and less on some people feeling slightly uncomfortable around certain people.

amiller92
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Re: Crime

Postby amiller92 » February 28th, 2018, 10:22 am

Yup

kirby96
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Re: Crime

Postby kirby96 » February 28th, 2018, 10:48 am

grrdanko wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 10:11 pm
I think as a city we need to focus more on the vitality part and less on some people feeling slightly uncomfortable around certain people.
Careful...

What Arradondo refers to in the article as the conduct that isn't illegal ("lack of civility and respect") is harassment, sometimes of a sexual nature and often directed at women predominantly by men.

You are getting very close to suggesting harassment victims just get over it.

Chef
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Re: Crime

Postby Chef » February 28th, 2018, 10:56 am

seanrichardryan wrote:
February 25th, 2018, 7:22 am
Who shot the warehouse district?
http://tcbmag.com/news/articles/2018/ma ... e-district
It is funny that they are trying to pass off the '80s as some sort of golden idyll for the Warehouse District. The stuff that used to happen on Hennepin Ave back then makes today's concerns look pretty tame by comparison.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Crime

Postby VacantLuxuries » February 28th, 2018, 10:57 am

Harassment is something we could change the legal definition of and make it possible to enforce. But that might make the lives of some others in power more difficult so we'll keep debating about spitting instead.

Chef
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Re: Crime

Postby Chef » February 28th, 2018, 11:19 am

VacantLuxuries wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 10:57 am
Harassment is something we could change the legal definition of and make it possible to enforce. But that might make the lives of some others in power more difficult so we'll keep debating about spitting instead.
In practice, making harassment a crime will just give the police the green light to harass "those people" more intensively.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Crime

Postby VacantLuxuries » February 28th, 2018, 11:23 am

To clarify - I mean putting a 21st Century definition of sexual harassment into writing with enough clarity to not be a blank check for harassing people for just being loud or unruly, and then making that a crime.

hiawather
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Re: Crime

Postby hiawather » February 28th, 2018, 11:59 am

Anecdata supporting any thesis at any time can pretty much always be gathered, which is why actual crime statistics are a valid counter to 'anecdata says Hennepin gives me bad feels'. The madness that suggests that Hennepin is worse now than when Block E was bounded by two Schinders stores and had Moby Dick's as a dystopian cherry on top merits immediate disregard.

Hennepin has always been sketch. In my 30 years living in Minneapolis I have never known it to not be...gritty. It's less sketch now than it was in the 80's/90's. For all the anecdata saying it's really bad now I'm sure we could gather anecdata saying it's really good. The only thing that stops us from doing so is that as rational people we know gathering anecdata is completely worthless for anyone but shit journalists whoring for clicks.

kirby96
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Re: Crime

Postby kirby96 » February 28th, 2018, 12:39 pm

hiawather wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 11:59 am
Hennepin has always been sketch. In my 30 years living in Minneapolis I have never known it to not be...gritty. It's less sketch now than it was in the 80's/90's. For all the anecdata saying it's really bad now I'm sure we could gather anecdata saying it's really good. The only thing that stops us from doing so is that as rational people we know gathering anecdata is completely worthless for anyone but shit journalists whoring for clicks.
"Men have always harassed women. In my 40s year I have never known women to not be...harassed. Women are harassed less now than they were in the 80's/90's. For all the anecdata saying sexual harassment is really bad now, I'm sure we could gather anecdata saying it's really good. The only thing that stops us from doing so is that as rational people we know that gathering anecdata is completely worthless for anyone but shit journalists whoring for #metoo clicks".

Bottom line: who cares if Hennepin 'used to be worse'? There are people with legitimate points of view that think its a problem now, they should be believed and listened to, not dismissed.

Chef
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Re: Crime

Postby Chef » February 28th, 2018, 1:19 pm

kirby96 wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 12:39 pm

Bottom line: who cares if Hennepin 'used to be worse'? There are people with legitimate points of view that think its a problem now, they should be believed and listened to, not dismissed.
Because if we listen to those people the end result will be that Minneapolis will be a Disneyfied urban theme park for yuppies. That may not be their intention but it is where it will lead. I don't want to live in that version of Minneapolis. Good cities have some anarchy, but I have spent the last 30 years watching city leaders try to purge every drop of it from ours.

It is the dark side of the progressive impulse - if you build the perfect society with no discord you also make it an incredibly boring place to live.

Didier
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Re: Crime

Postby Didier » February 28th, 2018, 3:50 pm

I don't really have a vested interest in Hennepin Avenue because I rarely am there, but two things.

1. Comparing the "grittiness" to the 1980s is kind of irrelevant anyway. The point is that the Warehouse District is much more important now to the overall vitality of the city, and people increasingly don't want to go there.

2. It's worth noting that, despite Hennepin being probably the second most important commercial drag downtown (maybe third, behind Washington), there are several high-profile restaurant or retail spots that have been empty for years.

I guess it just seems like as a city, we kind of need Hennepin Avenue to be better, which means getting more storefronts and people there. But any attempt to engage in why people aren't spending time there is dismissed as either naive or racist. I have to think there are fair solutions short of arresting everyone.

hiawather
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Re: Crime

Postby hiawather » March 1st, 2018, 8:39 am

kirby96 wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 12:39 pm
hiawather wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 11:59 am
Hennepin has always been sketch. In my 30 years living in Minneapolis I have never known it to not be...gritty. It's less sketch now than it was in the 80's/90's. For all the anecdata saying it's really bad now I'm sure we could gather anecdata saying it's really good. The only thing that stops us from doing so is that as rational people we know gathering anecdata is completely worthless for anyone but shit journalists whoring for clicks.
"Men have always harassed women. In my 40s year I have never known women to not be...harassed. Women are harassed less now than they were in the 80's/90's. For all the anecdata saying sexual harassment is really bad now, I'm sure we could gather anecdata saying it's really good. The only thing that stops us from doing so is that as rational people we know that gathering anecdata is completely worthless for anyone but shit journalists whoring for #metoo clicks".

Bottom line: who cares if Hennepin 'used to be worse'? There are people with legitimate points of view that think its a problem now, they should be believed and listened to, not dismissed.
Bottom line: your analogy carries no more water than an entire article based on anecdata. Furthermore your response is disingenuous and dismissive and therefore rather hypocritical.

The question isn't if Hennepin is 'bad' - it always has been. That dismisses nothing and nobody. That doesn't say 'bad is acceptable'.
What I do dismiss is a puff piece based on feelings, conspiracy theories and an utter lack of hard facts. It seems like that's also a very real problem in the world today and you casually dismiss it. If you want to create public policy from the perspective of over-charged amygdalas, please feel free to defend that approach rather than wasting all our time misrepresenting my point.

amiller92
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Re: Crime

Postby amiller92 » March 1st, 2018, 9:54 am

Didier wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 3:50 pm
The point is that the Warehouse District is much more important now to the overall vitality of the city
It is? I don't think that's true at all. Today, we've got stuff along Washington and in the North Loop that has sort of never been there in the past. If anything, the Warehouse District is less important than it's been since they built the Target Center.

Which isn't to say it's not important. We really do need to get it sorted.
and people increasingly don't want to go there.
Do we have any evidence of this trend? Because the complaints tend to be about lots of people being there. And even that ridiculous article didn't quote anyone saying their business is down.
2. It's worth noting that, despite Hennepin being probably the second most important commercial drag downtown (maybe third, behind Washington), there are several high-profile restaurant or retail spots that have been empty for years.
Which has nothing to do with a purported recent uptick in crime. It definitely has something to do with only 500 people living in the Warehouse District, though.
I guess it just seems like as a city, we kind of need Hennepin Avenue to be better, which means getting more storefronts and people there.
We absolutely need Hennepin to be better, which means getting more storefronts and people there. Crime isn't the obstacle.

MNdible
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Re: Crime

Postby MNdible » March 1st, 2018, 10:07 am

So what if the obstacle is that businesses don't want to open up new storefronts on Hennepin because it's regularly overrun with bad actors loitering around, even if that's a perception that's fraught with whiffs of racism?

kirby96
Union Depot
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Re: Crime

Postby kirby96 » March 1st, 2018, 10:18 am

hiawather wrote: Bottom line: your analogy carries no more water than an entire article based on anecdata. Furthermore your response is disingenuous and dismissive and therefore rather hypocritical.

The question isn't if Hennepin is 'bad' - it always has been. That dismisses nothing and nobody. That doesn't say 'bad is acceptable'.
What I do dismiss is a puff piece based on feelings, conspiracy theories and an utter lack of hard facts. It seems like that's also a very real problem in the world today and you casually dismiss it. If you want to create public policy from the perspective of over-charged amygdalas, please feel free to defend that approach rather than wasting all our time misrepresenting my point.
^Great. Start a thread on poor journalism practices. I happen to agree with your premise there. However, despite your dismissal, the issue here IS that Hennepin is 'bad'.

Do you have a point on how people feel on Hennepin avenue, because your post suggests that "Since this is a crummy article, let's forget about debating what can be done to make people feel safe in the Warehouse District (because, you know, it's always been that way) and instead start attacking the real problem of lazy journalists."

And just a little hint: when journalists start writing articles such as you so vehemently disparage, it's almost ALWAYS because they are seizing upon popular zeitgeist, such as, oh I don't know, the #metoo movement? In other words, where there is journalistic smoke (hype), there is often fire (a valid point).

Chef
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Re: Crime

Postby Chef » March 1st, 2018, 10:20 am

Usually when a restaurant space is empty for years it means that either the rent is too high or the inner workings of the space are broken in a way that prevents the restaurant from operating properly or profitably. There are spots that are restaurant graveyards all throughout the metro. There are more of them downtown because there are more restaurant spaces downtown. There are also tons of successful restaurants downtown.

If restaurants could survive on East Lake St or Nicollet Ave back when those were dangerous neighborhoods, then perceptions of crime isn't what is keeping them from working on Hennepin Ave. The problem is almost certainly one of landlords who overvalue their property.
Last edited by Chef on March 1st, 2018, 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Crime

Postby VacantLuxuries » March 1st, 2018, 10:21 am

I have to wonder if part of it is business owners who refuse to lower their rents to find tenants because "It's Hennepin Avenue!" while simultaneously complaining about the state of Hennepin Avenue.

Didier
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Re: Crime

Postby Didier » March 1st, 2018, 10:51 am

amiller92 wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 9:54 am
Didier wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 3:50 pm
The point is that the Warehouse District is much more important now to the overall vitality of the city
It is?
Yeah, it is. We've invested heavily in the area since the 1980s, including Target Center, Target Field, a new central library, Mayo Clinic Square, Cowles Center and an LRT stop. Maybe no other area in Minneapolis has as many destinations. The whole point is that this is a place where we want people to go and spend time and money. And yet Hennepin Avenue is plagued with empty storefronts and inexplicable surface parking lots, including one adjacent to an LRT station.
amiller92 wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 9:54 am
Didier wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 3:50 pm
and people increasingly don't want to go there.
Do we have any evidence of this trend? Because the complaints tend to be about lots of people being there. And even that ridiculous article didn't quote anyone saying their business is down.
Regular news coverage of people not wanting to spend time in the Warehouse District, with local business owners regularly quoted as being frustrated, all coupled with perpetually empty storefronts, this is all evidence of a bad trend. Clinging to this idea that "the data doesn't support it" is kind of bizarre. The situation can be worse, and certainly the perception can be worse, even if the strict "crime rates" are generally the same. And one reason why the perception might be different? See above. People use Hennepin Avenue differently today than they did 10, 20, 30 years ago.
amiller92 wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 9:54 am
We absolutely need Hennepin to be better, which means getting more storefronts and people there. Crime isn't the obstacle.
Then what's the obstacle? It seems you're hung up on "crime." To be sure, crime is definitely a problem. According to this 2017 Star Tribune article: "the neighborhoods with the highest violent crime rates in 2016 were: Downtown West (71.1 per 1,000 people), Hawthorne (40.3), East Phillips (30.2), Jordan (29.8), Folwell (29)."

But be honest about it. This isn't a binary conversation. There are a lot of issues surrounding Hennepin Avenue right now, and the reasonable voices in this discussion are clear that crime is just one of them. We also don't have enough places for people to go, and too many of those places right now are clustered. We also don't have enough people living in the area. We also don't have great streetscapes or sidewalks. And we also don't have a means in place to adequately deter abusive, if not criminal, behavior. Together, these factors have limited the Warehouse District's ability to attract the wider population it needs in order to become more successful.

It's honestly silly that people are on here supporting "seediness," even as it deters investment in what should be one of our main commercial districts. You can have a cool, thriving downtown area without it also being "seedy."


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