George Floyd murder and aftermath

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uptownbro
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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby uptownbro » June 1st, 2020, 5:51 pm

It was reported one person came in from Illinois for the soul propose of causing damage. How many besides this one guy is all over the place. I think it only takes one person when emotions are high to cause a panic in a large group. Outside of that I agree its just hard to tell and we may never know.
https://www.startribune.com/we-came-to- ... 570930722/

BoredAgain
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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby BoredAgain » June 2nd, 2020, 7:53 am

Didier wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 2:21 pm
Kind of curiously, the Longfellow Market never boarded up its giant plate glass windows yet didn't appear to have any damage. You'd think somebody out to indiscriminately destroy stuff would have put a hammer through those.
It was reported that Longfellow Market had volunteer workers and others outside with bats/crowbars through all of the rioting to fend off people. That was enough to dissuade the casual violence and I guess they weren't targeted by the more organized group(s) out there.

amiller92
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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby amiller92 » June 2nd, 2020, 2:20 pm

Didier wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 2:21 pm
Probably time to split this off into it's own thread?

Anecdotally, the Walgreens at 31st Avenue was hit hard on Wednesday night, boarded up and broken into again on Thursday, and then destroyed by fire overnight Thursday. Definitely the hardest hit of anything in the vicinity. Not sure if there's anything to take from that.

As best I could tell, the last business to be broken into was Papa Murphy's just before the river. A block west, it looked like somebody broke into the auto shop and drove a car through one of the garages. Speedway at 44th was ransacked, and I'm pretty sure Dairy Queen was hit too. Kind of curiously, the Longfellow Market never boarded up its giant plate glass windows yet didn't appear to have any damage. You'd think somebody out to indiscriminately destroy stuff would have put a hammer through those.

By the time I got farther west it was hard to tell which businesses had been hit versus which ones had boards up as a preventative measure, but for the most part, at least once you got away from Hi-Lake, the "minority owned" type signs did seem to make a difference.

It's probably a fool's errand to try to search for too much motivation behind these attacks, though.
There is one clear, undeniable pattern: they weren't damaging occupied residences (or housing at all aside from the construction site). I didn't see any damaged buildings that had signs saying people lived there or any obvious housing buildings (although I guess the Strib reported smashed windows at 4Marq).

And a second, less clear pattern: there's not much damage in the vicinity of 38th & Chicago. Maybe that's because it's mostly residential.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby SurlyLHT » June 3rd, 2020, 12:15 pm

It really seems certain businesses were targeted:

1) Pharmacies (Over a dozen)
2) Cell Phone stores.
3) Big Box Stores both Target and Cubs.
4) From what I've heard at least a couple community owned barber shops were burned down or damaged.
5) Liquor stores.
6) Autoparts.

It seems like places that were targeted had goods you could easily sell on the black market like pharmaceuticals and electronics, autoparts I'm not sure about alcohol. I wondering what percent of the businesses badly damage sell one of these 3 or 4 groups of goods? Some places like Target would overlap with electronics and pharmacies.

Didier
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George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby Didier » June 3rd, 2020, 10:33 pm

This is being discussed in a handful of threads but it feels worthy of having a dedicated space for more general discussion. So here we go.

Something I've been thinking about these last few days, as things continue to play out, is whether we might eventually look back at the local response last week much more favorably?

At the time, things were happening really fast, the damage was devastating and communication from local authorities was mostly nonexistent, so watching it all take place in real time — particular Thursday and Friday — felt frustrating and hopeless. Understandably, Walz, Frey and Carter (and Frey in particular) came under heavy criticism, and at the time that felt very deserved.

However, removing the emotion and confusion of experiencing those nights live, the decision to sacrifice the third precinct building in order to avoid a larger confrontation with police ended up largely working. There was a ton of collateral damage to the area, true, but the theme I heard over and over that night was "black lives are more important than property," and amazingly throughout all of this only one person died. Based on what we're seeing in other cities now, it's conceivable to imagine an alternate history in which the police played a more active role, the third precinct was spared and the entire situation got markedly worse.

Friday for me was probably the worst day, just because it was hard to believe it was happening again. The TV cameras on the highway overpass also illustrated the scene so vividly. But in retrospect, there is some credence to the city's explanation that it was simply overwhelmed and unable to respond effectively. Not that this failure was justified, but just that it doesn't look so unique anymore.

And then there's a lot of room for criticism of aggressive tactics used by law enforcement throughout, including the disregard (or worse) for journalists. But by and large, when the governor said they were going to enforce the curfew Saturday and shut things down before the situation got out of control again, that's exactly what happened. And by Sunday night, the whole thing had become almost textbook civil disobedience. The governor said anyone out after 8 p.m. would be arrested, a lot of people decided the cause was worth breaking the law for, and when police arrested them as promised, it was orderly and peaceful.

Again, I'm not suggesting at all that the local response was perfect or even good. There were some major tactical mistakes, and way too many anecdotal instances of overly aggressive policing. As we watch the violent and chaotic scenes now taking place in New York and other cities now, though, our response is already feeling more effective than it did at the time. It feels like we already began the process of coming together and starting to move forward over the weekend, whereas in other cities the protests have grown larger and the police actions more violent.

Curious what others think?

(As I write this a blackhawk helicopter is flying over for what feels like the 10th time tonight)

amiller92
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby amiller92 » June 4th, 2020, 9:36 am

I've lost track of which night was which, but I think it was a tactical error not to enforce the first night of curfew, which I think the governor having a press conference at 1:30 in the morning basically admits. I understand why they did it, though. As with the pandemic, I think the governor has been thoughtful and pragmatic, which is all we can really ask for.

I the future, I'm interested in learning what really went down between Frey and the police. My strong suspicion is that they sought to screw him for trying to hold them accountable and trying to keep them from escalating uncontrollably. If he did try to get them not to shoot rubber bullets and gas at protesters on the first night, good for him. If, as I suspect, they responded by refusing to do their jobs the next two nights, they really need to go.

MNdible
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby MNdible » June 4th, 2020, 10:10 am

I'm in general agreement. I feel like the destruction on Wednesday and Thursday night was unfortunate, if difficult to avoid. Friday night (the first night of the curfew) was extremely disappointing. They should have had enough time to get adequate protection on the ground, and given the absence of that protection, I think it's a minor miracle that things didn't end up markedly worse. Given the number and geographic spread of the fires that night, had (for example) the wind been just a little bit stronger, we could very easily have seen those fires spread disastrously into residential neighborhoods.

nordeast homer
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby nordeast homer » June 4th, 2020, 10:19 am

I know a lot of people here like mayor Frey, and until this happened I could have been considered in that category. I still like him as a person, he's very approachable; however, I think he looked very vulnerable in this. What the city needed was leadership and clear direction and he was clearly flustered and appeared to have no idea what to do. After night number 2 you watch how both mayor Frey and mayor Carter handled themselves and mayor Carter showed exactly how to respond.

talindsay
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby talindsay » June 4th, 2020, 11:20 am

Yeah, based on what we know right now I'm inclined to agree. Frey wasn't up to the task, and was waffling over how to address the crisis. In general I think the governor did pretty well but clearly he, too, underestimated what it was going to take Friday night. All the elected officials were afraid of being the ones responsible for an overzealous response, and that does make a lot of sense, but by Friday night it seems like it should have been clear that a more serious response was needed.

I expect as more details emerge we'll reëvaluate each of their roles in the response, and maybe Frey will look more favorable in that light. While all three clearly struggled though, it seems like Walz taking control of the situation from Frey was a big improvement.

SurlyLHT
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby SurlyLHT » June 5th, 2020, 9:33 am

During a Press Conference the head of the National Guard said that they originally didn't plan on deploying until Saturday. Then had to quickly scramble. That may have had something to do with the rocky first night they were deployed.

twincitizen
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby twincitizen » June 5th, 2020, 9:39 am

I also agree with pretty much everything said above. I'm far less angry/disappointed in the response & failure to prevent further destruction (especially the arson) than I was on Friday & Saturday mornings, knowing what we now know about the number of people than came in to riot and burn our city down. It's also hard to know whether more blame lies at the feet of the mayor or at the police. It certainly seemed like the police just stood down on Wednesday and Thursday night. They were nowhere to be found in defending Lake Street. Friday there was a more visible presence out, and seemingly protected downtown, but they were again overwhelmed and unable to prevent more burning & destruction.

While my anger at the mayor has lessened, I still feel that every decision/action was taken 24 hours too late. After what happened Wednesday night, how the hell was there not a curfew called for Thursday night? Calling a curfew Friday night was a day late and largely went unenforced. While the Guard was out Friday, the initial 500-person activation was nowhere near what was necessary. It's easy to imagine how much more of Lake Street (and West Broadway) could've been saved if decisions on curfews and activating the Guard had come 24 hours sooner. Like others have said, it's hard now to separate what happened on which days, but my recollection is that only a handful of buildings were burned on Wednesday night (Autozone, Wendy's, the affordable development, a few others in the immediate area), while many others were badly damaged but not destroyed. Much of downtown Longfellow, particularly the 3-4 story buildings (the ones housing Denny's and El Nuevo Rodeo) weren't hit until Thursday night when people came back to take down the 3rd precinct. By sheer quantity, I believe many more buildings were burned Thursday night than Wednesday. While by Friday night, the rioting/destruction moved to the 5th Precinct (Nicollet/Lake area), that was also the night that arsonists tried to take down Midtown Global Market & the Chi-Lake area.

LakeCharles
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby LakeCharles » June 5th, 2020, 10:18 am

While the response and the outcome was not ideal, I really disagree with the idea that the main lesson is that we should send in massive military force as early as possible.

The initial activation was the largest law enforcement deployment of the Guard in MN history. When combined with the State Patrol and the Police, they had over 2,000 heavily armed law enforcement on the streets. Obviously they increased that by even more later, but I would hate if next time an AutoZone burns down they immediately enact a curfew and turn the city into a police state again.

amiller92
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby amiller92 » June 5th, 2020, 10:20 am

nordeast homer wrote:
June 4th, 2020, 10:19 am
I know a lot of people here like mayor Frey, and until this happened I could have been considered in that category. I still like him as a person, he's very approachable; however, I think he looked very vulnerable in this. What the city needed was leadership and clear direction and he was clearly flustered and appeared to have no idea what to do. After night number 2 you watch how both mayor Frey and mayor Carter handled themselves and mayor Carter showed exactly how to respond.
If, as has been rumored, the police are not following orders, what do you do?

I guess get the governor to send the National Guard sooner, maybe.

uptownbro
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby uptownbro » June 5th, 2020, 10:22 am

I have to agree everyone underestimated how bad it would get but it was clear to me Thursday morning driving and walking along lake street that there was a huge risk of it getting worse. I can’t seem to understand why the curfew wasn’t enforced Friday night as well as the highways being blocked off. Now that’s not to say the response has been perfect but Monday through this morning it seems a better balance has been found to some degree.

twincitizen
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby twincitizen » June 5th, 2020, 10:29 am

Thank you for mentioning the highways. That specifically occurred to me on Friday morning, as a tactic that quite obviously should've been used Friday night to limit/deter access by non-residents, particularly those coming from out-state MN and out of state. That wasn't done until Saturday night. I have no experience in any of this stuff whatsoever, but so many of the solutions that were ultimately employed just came a day late, when it was clear by Thursday afternoon that this was not a one day thing.

It's not that we all want to live in a police state that many were disappointed in the total lack of response Thursday/Friday...it's more so that it felt like MPD was standing down and allowing the destruction to happen on those nights. Aside from defending their own precinct buildings, I don't know that anyone had a sense that MPD was doing much of anything those nights. Where the hell were they? As said above, if that is true that they basically quit defending the city, I don't know how much blame can be placed on the mayor. Certainly he deserves some blame, as it is fairly clear he did not act soon enough to call the governor on Thursday. In addition to everything else going on, I hope there is an investigation into exactly what the hell the police were up to Wednesday-Friday nights.

EOst
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby EOst » June 5th, 2020, 10:57 am

It's worth noting I think that humans have a really hard time differentiating what they knew at the time from what they know now. The situation was so fluid those first few nights, and the escalation so quick and so unexpected (esp. the arson feint strategy) that people had a really difficult time tracking everything that was happening and responding promptly.

karlshea
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby karlshea » June 6th, 2020, 4:53 pm

Not totally excusing Frey for later in the week, but he did call for the Guard Wednesday around 5-7pm-ish according to reporting at the time and later on. I think what happened is that no one anticipated (obviously wrongly looking back, but even maybe at the time) that it would get that bad on Thurs/Fri so the initial deployment was already too small. I do agree with others that responding with overwhelming force would have made things worse, so I can kind of see why things played out like they did. I do think had they called for more guard initially then things wouldn't have been so bad on Friday since there would have been more already here.

Didier
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby Didier » June 6th, 2020, 9:51 pm

As I understood it from the reporting Friday night, didn’t they say they had the numbers but they were just initially deployed to the wrong places?

One of the tricky parts about the TV coverage was that it was sometimes hard to get a sense of what was going on outside the two or three spots where their reporters were. Obviously the fifth precinct ended up being the hardest hit that night, but before that started there were buildings on fire in north Minneapolis. So maybe the guard was mostly up there?

I might have misunderstood, though, or maybe this was clarified after the fact.

karlshea
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby karlshea » June 6th, 2020, 11:43 pm

I was watching the livestreams a lot during Wed/Thu/Fri and Lake was basically given to the arsonists. There was literally zero police or guard presence. It could have been a tactical choice, they could have been deployed elsewhere, or they may have realized they didn't have enough people and decided it would have been worse to try and go in. I'm not sure.

amiller92
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Re: George Floyd murder and aftermath

Postby amiller92 » June 8th, 2020, 7:39 am

Or the police were trying to teach us a lesson.


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