Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Introductions - Urban Issues - Miscellaneous News, Topics, Interests
Lancestar2

Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby Lancestar2 » September 15th, 2012, 10:20 pm

A rather random question. However lets say down the line in 2040 or 2050 the Twin Cities area needs a 2nd airport for better ability to land and take off for airplanes. What options do you see being realistic? Of course we would assume that 80% of the 2030 transit infrastructural is built where would be a ideal location for a 2nd Airport? Or would we never need more than one international Airport provided we obtain HSR to Rochester? (which would allow HSR from MSP Airport to Rochester Airport)

I wonder if anybody else ever thought about this issue lol

User avatar
FISHMANPET
IDS Center
Posts: 4602
Joined: June 6th, 2012, 2:19 pm
Location: Corcoran

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby FISHMANPET » September 15th, 2012, 10:44 pm

Do we have much international traffic? Is Delta using MSP as an International hub? I know back when air travel was heavily regulated, Northwest had a lot of flights to Asia, did they continue that after deregulation? I know Detroit has a huge amount of international traffic from Asia, and now that's owned by Delta, and it looks like they took that over from NorthWest, so I don't think Minneapolis has been a major hub for quite a while.

So if traffic does increase we can just start flying bigger planes from area hubs (and HSR to Chicago would probably cut out a lot of air traffic).

Lancestar2

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby Lancestar2 » September 16th, 2012, 12:11 am

I think I used the wrong term. I was thinking more about national travel with the ability for international flight. Kinda like how New York City has 3 airports. Given that MSP really can't build another runway where would be the best location for a 2nd airport?

Also is there even a plan to reserve space for a 2nd airport or upgrade an existing local airport to international abilities?

I mean Anoka County-Blaine Airport looks to have 2.5M space for a runway if they removed the golf course and built over a few roads. Does Met council have a plan or do they never envision a time where a 2nd airport is needed?

User avatar
FISHMANPET
IDS Center
Posts: 4602
Joined: June 6th, 2012, 2:19 pm
Location: Corcoran

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby FISHMANPET » September 16th, 2012, 12:56 am

Well yeah, I understand the question, but you may as well be asking where we'll put our 20th airport. I don't think we'll have any use for another airport. MSP isn't much of a hub anymore, and it's probably easier to fly bigger planes into MSP if we reach capacity than to build another airport.

And as I said, HSR to Chicago would open up a lot of capacity at the airport.

thatchio
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 199
Joined: August 2nd, 2012, 6:49 am

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby thatchio » September 16th, 2012, 7:11 am

I think it is more realistic to assume that one of the other extended metro airports would be used, such as St. Cloud or Rochester than building a new airport.

Tcmetro
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1354
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 8:02 pm
Location: Chicago (ex-Minneapolitan)

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby Tcmetro » September 16th, 2012, 8:33 am

MAC was talking about a new airport to be built in Apple Valley, but instead went with upgrading Lindbergh and Humphrey. Another good location for a new airport would be the ammunition plant in Arden Hills.

The main questions are: Is a new airport necessary? Can the existing airport simply be expanded?

mulad
Moderator
Posts: 2802
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 6:30 pm
Location: Saint Paul
Contact:

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby mulad » September 16th, 2012, 9:32 am

An expansion of the Crystal airport might be interesting, since it's right next to the Bottineau corridor. Bottineau is expected to be an extension of the Blue Line (Hiawatha), so you could get a single-seat ride from there to MSP (aside from people-mover connections on either end, presumably). The runways at Crystal are pretty short, though, so it's fairly unlikely that it could support bigger planes unless some sort of STOL (short takeoff and landing) technology became prevalent -- opposition by neighbors due to land acquisition would surely prevent it from happening otherwise.

If HSR to Rochester happens (which I suspect could be extended to Chicago if we ever decide go beyond 110 mph), there will probably be a stop around Rosemount. There seems to be a decent amount of room down there for something new.

It looks like the Blaine airport has room to build longer runways, and Flying Cloud has expanded in recent years and probably could grow bigger. I'm not aware of any transit plans to Blaine, though Flying Cloud is probably close enough to the Southwest LRT that a branch could be built -- it would also provide some impetus for building LRT or something along the I-494 corridor, since it wouldn't make any sense for airport passengers to bounce through downtown Minneapolis.

In general, airport transit links don't perform all that well. We're relatively lucky that MSP is where it is, because many places have trouble justifying the cost for what tend to be pretty low-ridership routes out to the middle of nowhere. From a noise pollution perspective, it would be nice to have air traffic shift somewhere else -- it's amazing how much life can get disrupted by airport noise in south Minneapolis.

If true HSR ever happens, it could make a nice dent in the air traffic and make the outdoors quieter for a lot of people. HSR trains do make quite a bit of noise themselves, but the noise tends to be constrained to relatively narrow corridors in rural areas rather than being broadcast all over. They're usually quieter in the city due to slower speeds there, as opposed to aircraft which need to be throttled up when taking off.

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5832
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby MNdible » September 16th, 2012, 11:06 am

FISHMANPET wrote:Do we have much international traffic? Is Delta using MSP as an International hub? I know back when air travel was heavily regulated, Northwest had a lot of flights to Asia, did they continue that after deregulation? I know Detroit has a huge amount of international traffic from Asia, and now that's owned by Delta, and it looks like they took that over from NorthWest, so I don't think Minneapolis has been a major hub for quite a while.
Detroit and MSP currently jostle with each other for the position of the second largest hub in Delta's system (I think currently trendlines suggest that MSP will in time firmly take over the number two position).

When Detroit's new airport opened, NWA did shift a good chunk of its international routes there. International flights out of MSP are unfortunately still somewhat limited; however, Delta seems to be pushing for a new international facility at MSP, which might suggest that in the future, they'd like to add more international flights here.

Although Delta hasn't ordered very many of the new Dreamliners (a great sized, efficient plane), I could see a future where there is more point-to-point international service from the smaller hubs in their system.

seanrichardryan
Capella Tower
Posts: 3940
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul
Contact:

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby seanrichardryan » September 16th, 2012, 12:48 pm

Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5832
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby MNdible » September 16th, 2012, 7:45 pm

The FAA's new NextGen air traffic control system could also have a major impact on increasing the capacity of the runways at MSP, as well as potentially decreasing the sound impacts (at least for landing aircraft -- probably doesn't impact those taking off).

John21
Union Depot
Posts: 330
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:23 am
Location: 38th Street Station

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby John21 » September 17th, 2012, 4:35 pm

I'll have a flying car by then. I'm not too worried about it.

fehler
Rice Park
Posts: 444
Joined: July 30th, 2012, 8:33 am

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby fehler » September 18th, 2012, 12:38 pm

How about a set of runways somewhere in southern Dakota/Rice/Goodhue counties, with an underground superfast maglev conveyor between that and the main terminal?

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7942
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby mattaudio » September 18th, 2012, 2:25 pm

I seem to remember that, back in the late 90s after the dual track process was done and the state was all-in for MSP, there was discussion of a multi-modal cargo facility near Rosemount. Was probably just a pipe dream, sort of like U More. Maybe it's in the water down there...

Anyways I can't imagine that MSP will continue to grow at a rate that requires new runways or an entirely new airport. As airlines have consolidated, CRJs have gone away and aircraft gauges have increased. Some ramp and terminal improvements will likely be needed, but I can't see a big increase in total operations.

web

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby web » September 18th, 2012, 6:54 pm

The original plan was to move entirely to lakeville etc. this was rejected um 1997? The vote then went to msp2010 with improvements to everything at the airport, roads,terminals,runways, and drainage which are now complete and now msp2025 is being proposed

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7942
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby mattaudio » September 19th, 2012, 11:50 am

Yes, but before the MSP 2010 plan was finalized, and during the dual track legislative process which ended in 1996, there were other potential ideas for improving MSP at the existing location. One of these would have been extending the terminal road past 4/22 to 77/62 on the northwest corner of the property. My guess is that they found it was cheaper to just rebuild T2 along 34th Ave than to extend the terminal NW of 4/22.

mulad
Moderator
Posts: 2802
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 6:30 pm
Location: Saint Paul
Contact:

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby mulad » September 19th, 2012, 7:01 pm

The Rochester airport has been considered as a cargo facility in at least one case I'm aware of: the 2003 Rochester Rail Link Feasibility Study. I'm a bit dubious about the value of air freight, though -- it's a tiny slice of the overall freight market since it tends to be expensive, and the cost will only grow as fuel prices rise. I tend to think there's an opening for fast rail freight going all the way between big cities rather than just trying to decongest a particular airport.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7942
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby mattaudio » September 20th, 2012, 9:04 am

Yes but I can't imagine rail incumbents would like off-hours 100+ MPH freight trains competing with their Z trains which move UPS and FedEx trailers.

Civilization

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby Civilization » October 31st, 2012, 9:43 pm

International flight rates directly correlate to economic development.

And dont the feds make the call whether an airport expands?

mplsjaromir
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1112
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 8:03 am
Location: Sommerset Knolls

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby mplsjaromir » October 31st, 2012, 10:27 pm

Civilization wrote:International flight rates directly correlate to economic development.
Is that a linear or exponential relationship? Or is this something you made up completely?

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7942
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Location of a 2nd International Airport?

Postby mattaudio » November 1st, 2012, 8:12 am

I realize there was the late-90s MnDOT study to build HSR directly between MSP and RST, but I'm glad that has fizzled out. We need downtown-to-downtown rail service, not airport-to-airport rail service.

WRT freight airports, I think the reason the Rosemount plan never got off the ground is because a lot of air freight flies in passenger aircraft bellies, so it doesn't work to have a separate freight facility unless you're running a cargo operation on the scale of Memphis, Louisville, or the former Wilmington OH airport.


Return to “Anything Goes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests