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FISHMANPET
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Re: Denver building boom

Postby FISHMANPET » October 7th, 2015, 1:03 pm

Well this was just in reference to residential development. I don't know anything about office development, as I haven't seen anything about any of that in Denver.

Denver home prices seem to be higher than what we have here, so maybe their office economy is growing differently than ours. For what it's worth we also have the Wells Fargo "towers" going up.

I just bet you could find plenty of people in Denver and show them what we're building and they'd say "ugh Minneapolis is doing so much better than us."

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Nathan
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Re: Denver building boom

Postby Nathan » October 7th, 2015, 1:36 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:Well this was just in reference to residential development. I don't know anything about office development, as I haven't seen anything about any of that in Denver.

Denver home prices seem to be higher than what we have here, so maybe their office economy is growing differently than ours. For what it's worth we also have the Wells Fargo "towers" going up.

I just bet you could find plenty of people in Denver and show them what we're building and they'd say "ugh Minneapolis is doing so much better than us."
Feel free to look, they're on the map.

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Re: Denver

Postby FISHMANPET » October 7th, 2015, 1:55 pm

Welp thread got moved as I posted so it dissapeared into the ether.

I think we're both seeing what we want to see.

Denver has a lot of hotel towers going up near the convention center, we don't have that. The six story stick stuff all looks pretty much the same to me. There are a few taller things that aren't quite towers, I wonder if those are steel stud or steel and concrete?

Edit: I will add that I really like the format for that blog, each project gets defined as a "category" so you can easily find anything on a particular project.

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Re: Denver

Postby twincitizen » October 7th, 2015, 2:02 pm

Any idea what Denver's permit activity totals are for the last few years?

Denver has slightly less population today than Mpls+StP combined, but I'd guess they'll be pretty close by the next census. Denver is geographically larger than Mpls+StP, but not so much so to make it an unfair comparison.

I'd be curious how they compare to Mpls+StP in terms of residential units added since 2010, total permit activity, etc.

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Nathan
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Re: Denver

Postby Nathan » October 7th, 2015, 2:14 pm

The reason I'm thinking that Denver has some better projects than us is because they are including architectural designs that are on par with what is going on in the rest of the world, yes we also have a lot of same or similar projects, but most of our larger projects are really traditional, simple, and fauxstoric. in other words, Basic.

Here are specific examples where they are building things we can't compare to.

http://denverinfill.com/blog/tag/1144-15th-street

http://denverinfill.com/blog/tag/two-tabor-center

http://denverinfill.com/blog/tag/999-17th-street

http://denverinfill.com/blog/tag/16-wewatta (this one is even super simple and looks amazing, puts xcel to shame)

Plus they have at least 5 projects the scale of Mosaic phase 3, of similar or better design.
http://denverinfill.com/blog/tag/2930-umatilla

I love Minneapolis, and I love to think we're a great design and urban city, and I don't really like Den, so for me to be saying they are doing better is painful, and I totally understand what you're trying to say about grass is greener, but I did spend 2 months this summer looking at new infrastructure and buildings in Europe, and DEN is a lot closer to that, than we are in new design quality.

I'll agree that the residential is fairly similar, but damn, there's a lot of it.

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Re: Denver

Postby FISHMANPET » October 7th, 2015, 2:33 pm

But you linked 3 towers. We're not building any towers to that scale right now. And then you compare a glass curtain wall building to the Xcel building. I mean, fine, whatever, you think glass curtain wall is objectively better than brick, than sure, whatever. Should Xcel have been glass curtain wall? Would that have fit in? I don't know.

I guess I just don't see it, you're trying to compare apples and oranges. These oranges are terrible! They aren't apples! Why aren't apples growing from our orange trees?

If there's some objective theory of design that says Denver buildings are categorically "better" than what we have here then by all means make a case for that. I know you have a lot of experience with that kind of stuff so you'll be much better able to talk about it then a layman like me who's looking at them and thinking "eh?"

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Re: Denver

Postby Nathan » October 7th, 2015, 2:44 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:But you linked 3 towers. We're not building any towers to that scale right now. And then you compare a glass curtain wall building to the Xcel building. I mean, fine, whatever, you think glass curtain wall is objectively better than brick, than sure, whatever. Should Xcel have been glass curtain wall? Would that have fit in? I don't know.

I guess I just don't see it, you're trying to compare apples and oranges. These oranges are terrible! They aren't apples! Why aren't apples growing from our orange trees?

If there's some objective theory of design that says Denver buildings are categorically "better" than what we have here then by all means make a case for that. I know you have a lot of experience with that kind of stuff so you'll be much better able to talk about it then a layman like me who's looking at them and thinking "eh?"
No. One that I linked was 9 stories. http://denverinfill.com/blog/wp-content ... corner.jpg


You're last statement is what makes this conversation with you painful ;) and kind of proves your ignorance and lack of place to speak to what I'm speaking to. If you're purely fixated on the functionality of the city, that's fine, we're doing ok. I'm just pointing out that we're lacking inspiration slash resting on our laurels while a lot of the rest of the country/world is really going to work and putting up inspirational things.

Denver is probably just still catching up to us architecturally if we're looking at mpls' history of great buildings, but we're approaching a 15 year gap of architecture... I'd like to say Minneapolis has at least one great example of every type of architecturel time period, but we're on track to have 2 or 3 missing decades.

*why this matters... If I look at the linked ^^^ 9 story building, 40 years from now, I could tell you that it was built between 2010 and 2020. Looking at the new xcel building... eh... probably between 1995 and 2025. this is our main street and we're building a generic office building with no real distinguishing design features. It's just sad. It's sad to live in a city where, oh ya that looks fine, is good enough, when 10 years ago I felt like I lived in a city building dynamic up and coming architecture. (which Minneapolis was.)

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Re: Denver

Postby FISHMANPET » October 7th, 2015, 3:01 pm

Don't worry I know I'm a huge pain.

I guess what I'm getting at is that if there is some subjective deficiency of our architecture than that should be expanded on. If it's all objective "I like this but I don't like that" then I don't really know where to go with that. Maybe it is all subjective but if you put enough architects in a room their subjective opinions become objective. I guess the reason I poke at this is I'm curious how we can fix the "problem" and seems like the first part of that is really defining the problem.

So I clearly don't have the training or knowledge or vocabulary to talk about design stuff, and I'm probably broken in that a whole lot of stuff just doesn't bother me, but it bothers somebody. So designers and architects, speak up!

But then on the other side I see stuff like this: https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/stat ... 1608592384
Brownstones are ugly! Architects say we're suffering from a Brownstone blight! I'm not sure anybody has any kind of basis for talking about this stuff until 60 or 70 years after it's been built because the experts have been so wrong in the past. Maybe that's why I'm down on architecture criticism in general, because it seems to try to speak to some universal truth of quality when in reality it's all subjective and subject to massive changes in general opinion on things.

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Re: Denver

Postby Nathan » October 7th, 2015, 3:26 pm

I see what you're getting at with the article, but the oranges of oranges of that article would be the hundreds of houses in subdivisions going up with James Hardy Siding would it not? we can criticize our boring housing supply in the cities, but we long ago stopped using architects to design them, and I'm totally in agreement there.

However, I'm speaking to more substantial architecture that creates the civic pride of a city. We don't have mountains, we have a few lakes, we don't have the ocean and beaches, we have sub zero temperatures for weeks on end. We need well designed, beautiful buildings, and urban fabric to compete. Yes, design is subjective, but not as much as you're speaking to. There is a set of values missing from our system right now, whether it's cost or caution or regulations, I'm not sure... I don't know why. I'd like to be in a position to know why, but I'm not. Google image search the equivalent of Mill City or North loop in a variety of European Cities and see what the difference is. It's sustainable, long term, creative architecture with lots of variety. (and I'm not in the camp of people upset about a lot of the new infill looking the same... again I'm talking about substantial buildings in important areas.)

Harbor City in Hamburg
https://www.google.com/search?q=Harbor+ ... re+Hamburg

Grand Canal Dock in Dublin
https://www.google.com/search?q=Harbor+ ... ure+Dublin

the foursome of Opus Buildings on Nicollet would be laughed at by most urban centers around the world... seriously, sometimes you just have to believe me ;)

In Switzerland I learned that the developer has to build a wood structure in the buildings place for 6 months in order to get public feedback... not surprising that they submit well thought out well designed projects the first time, they won't get the luxury of slipping through the system without producing a decent product.

I'm just saying there are places getting lots of quality, and good design, and infill. If we don't have the demand for office space that's fine, but some of these buildings are defining features for our city and recently, they've been pathetic. (opus I'm staring at you.) /Rant

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Re: Denver

Postby FISHMANPET » October 7th, 2015, 3:41 pm

I just feel like until someone can put a finger on what we're lacking, these conversations aren't going to go anywhere. A lot of architecture stuff seems to be of the "I'll know it when I see it." And so like I said early, maybe the only way to get to an objective statement on architecture is to fill a room with subjective architects and collectively the opinion becomes objective.

It seems like architecture get so caught up every other thing that impacts a building. Lots of people don't like the architecture of the stadium, because of the politics behind the stadium itself. I like it, it's certainly different, which seems to be one of the few defining traits of those links of yours, is that there's lots of stuff there, some if it pretty far out. Actually, one of the Dublin buildings even looks similar to the stadium, though obviously on a different stadium.

Maybe we'll be having these debates for a thousand years with no resolution with people imprinting their thoughts into UrbanEuropa about how the new holo projected aircrete walled buildings are all looking the same and Titan is doing such a better job. I like solving problems (it's a big part of what my job is) and you almost always start at defining the problem and I just don't see a strong problem statement in any of these discussions beyond "this bad, that good." Like, what's good? What's bad? What's different? Maybe I'll never be able to approach this problem in a way I can understand so maybe I should just shut up.

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Nathan
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Re: Denver

Postby Nathan » October 7th, 2015, 3:44 pm

You're in luck.

https://www.architecture.com/Explore/St ... igned.aspx

*I'd argue that a lot of our new buildings aren't meeting the very few requirements of being well designed. Regardless of the subjective matter of taste.

**and for some reason be it appreciation or regulation some cities/countries are doing a really great job, I think we're doing... eh, OK.

I was just surprised to see Denver doing well, because I like to think we're better.

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Re: Denver

Postby seamonster » October 9th, 2015, 9:06 am

Legalized marijuana negatively impacting Denver's Toys for Tots campaign - no warehouses available for donation:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28943 ... ouse-space

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Re: Denver

Postby twincitizen » January 17th, 2016, 11:23 pm

Heading to Denver Tuesday thru Friday.

Give me all the suggestions. Likely will do a day trip to Boulder, maybe stay a night. Will have a rental car most of the time, but hoping to take a little transit here and there in town.

We're looking for stuff in the city (breweries, restaurants, shops, etc.) as well as day trips (hiking, snowshoeing, etc.) not too far from the city (proximate to either Denver or Boulder).

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Re: Denver

Postby mister.shoes » January 18th, 2016, 11:43 pm

If you go to Steuben's, get the Steubie Snacks. Delicious.
The problem with being an introvert online is that no one knows you're just hanging out and listening.

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Re: Denver

Postby nate » January 19th, 2016, 5:50 am

A friend from college has a liquor store with only Colorado-made beer and spirits. He is doing pretty well, might be worth checking out.

hugosbeer.com/

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Re: Denver

Postby RailBaronYarr » January 19th, 2016, 9:22 am


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Re: Denver

Postby LakeCharles » January 19th, 2016, 9:47 am

LoHi/Highlands/Highland Park is a fun neighborhood. On your way to Boulder stop by El Dorado Canyon State Park. Up in Boulder try West End Tavern. Drive up to Nederland then head south to I-70 on your return trip to Denver.

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Re: Denver

Postby JREinMpls » January 19th, 2016, 2:18 pm

Born and raised in Mpls, been living in Denver the last 6 years. Here are some places I enjoy.

Coffee - Crema Cafe (RiNo), Denver Bike Cafe (Uptown)

Breweries - Denver - Denver Beer Co (best patio), Trve Brewing (metal/Viking), Hogshead (cask beer, Mmmm), Crooked Stave (sours), then head to the RiNo (river north) neighborhood and walk to Beryl's, Epic, Ratio (scotch ale), Zepher & Our Mutual Friend (coffee stout).
Breweries - Golden - Golden City Brewing and Mountain Toad
Breweries - Boulder - Fate, Mountain Sun, Twisted Pine & Sanitas.

Eat - Steuben's, Denver Chophouse (bonus - brewpub, $$$$), Linger (old mortuary), Buckhorn Exchange (Denver staple), Tom Diner (Dive, hangover food), Potager (farm to table), Cherry Cricket (burgers), Snooze (breakfast), Pints Pub (brewpub, fish and chips, huge whiskey selection)

Check out - Old Tennyson St, Uptown (17th st.), Cherry Creek (stuff to buy), North Denver (Highlands, LoHi or whatever is the trendy name of the day), The REI flagship store is rather impressive. Commons Park, Union Station and surrounding area, Visit the Stock Show (it's a big deal out here like the state fair in MN), Visit downtown Golden, Pearl St. (Boulder), Mork & Mindy house (Boulder), South Pearl St (Denver), Tattered Cover (books-n-stuff, downtown location), 16th St. Mall

Hike - Chuatuaqua (Boulder), Dinosaur Ridge/Red Rocks - (Denver, ok, Morrison), Mt Falcon (Denver), White Ranch (Golden)

It might be a bit much but there are some options.

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Re: Denver

Postby twincitizen » January 20th, 2016, 12:38 pm

Thanks! Yesterday we stuck pretty close to downtown, so far checked out the 16th St Mall, Union Station area, across the freeway to LoHi (had dinner at Linger) and walked around a bit. Today we're gonna walk around the Capitol area (unfortunately no tour of the Denver Mint), then head out to Golden and then to Boulder, hopefully figuring out a hike or outdoor activity

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Re: Denver

Postby John21 » April 18th, 2016, 4:59 pm



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