Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Parks, Minneapolis Public Schools, Density, Zoning, etc.
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby froggie » May 21st, 2016, 6:43 am

I know this is a bit of a thread necro, but regarding the original question from two years ago, here is a map the Hennepin County Library system created showing the order and date of annexations for Minneapolis. It doesn't include that weird blip in the northwest corner that apparently dates to the mid-1980s, but it includes all the other annexations.

Related to the thread, the 1927 annexation at the south end (between 54th and the Crosstown) was originally part of then-Richfield Township. The residents in that 1-mile range opted to join Minneapolis because they wanted modern city services (police, fire, sewer) that the Richfield of the time generally lacked.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby kiliff75 » May 21st, 2016, 12:17 pm

Cool map! I wonder if we'll ever get to a point where any first ring burbs want to be annexed. The only way I see that happening is if a burb is in some sort of financial trouble and Minneapolis has grown enough to broaden its tax base and lower rates and/or improves services enough. I'm sure there's other ways, but it would be interesting to hear other possibilities...

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby twincitizen » May 23rd, 2016, 7:33 am

kiliff75 wrote:The only way I see that happening is if a burb is in some sort of financial trouble and Minneapolis has grown enough to broaden its tax base and lower rates and/or improves services enough.
Agreed. I think that a hypothetical first ring burb seeking annexation would have to be in dire straits financially and see no alternative but to join its larger neighbor. But if Richfield, for example, were heading toward financial insolvency, I think the community would be pretty split as to whether that larger neighbor was Minneapolis or Bloomington.

A couple actions at the legislature could imperil some of the weaker first ring burbs pretty quickly: drastic cuts to LGA payments and/or changes to the Fiscal Disparities program. Many first ring burbs are net "takers" from fiscal disparities, and nearly all receive at least a little LGA.

2015 Fiscal Disparities map: http://metrocouncil.org/Communities/Pub ... -2014.aspx
2016 LGA amounts: http://www.revenue.state.mn.us/local_go ... mounts.pdf

If steep cuts to the above were to happen, I think you would see several years of cuts to city services (notably to Public Safety - by far the #1 expenditure - and Public Works) before any merger discussion began. No city is going to give up and beg for merger without several years of begging the legislature for relief.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby Seth » May 24th, 2016, 11:10 am

I've always been surprised that some of the smaller communities like St Anthony and Laurderdale were never annexed into Minneapolis or St Paul.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby twincitizen » May 24th, 2016, 11:33 am

There's just no way a place like Lauderdale is fiscally sound without LGA and Fiscal Disparities transfer payments coming in, is there?

The other thing that would seem to make mergers more palatable in the Twin Cities is that school districts are completely separate creatures of the state. In a hypothetical Minneapolis annexation of Richfield or St. Anthony Village, there's absolutely no reason to believe that the school district boundaries would be involved at all.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby EOst » May 24th, 2016, 11:40 am

twincitizen wrote:The other thing that would seem to make mergers more palatable in the Twin Cities is that school districts are completely separate creatures of the state. In a hypothetical Minneapolis annexation of Richfield or St. Anthony Village, there's absolutely no reason to believe that the school district boundaries would be involved at all.
That might be true technically, but I don't think it's true politically (from either side). It's one thing to have separate school districts in separate cities have dramatically unequal funding; it's another thing entirely in the same city.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby twincitizen » May 24th, 2016, 12:12 pm

Don't we already have that (multiple school districts covering one city)? There are cities that come to mind that have areas purported to be more or less desirable due to the school district (Plymouth is part Robbinsdale schools, part something else; Minnetonka is part Hopkins schools, part Minnetonka schools). Now, none of those districts are as "bad" as Minneapolis, so it's not quite as extreme in terms of HH incomes and funding disparities, but I think my general point stands.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby EOst » May 24th, 2016, 12:59 pm

Even boundaries between wealthier districts get contentious. Look at this dispute between Hopkins and Edina:
They're likely to get their answer Thursday, when the Hopkins school board votes on the controversial annexation request. But the district has balked in the past, arguing that it would shrink its tax base and increase the burden on other taxpayers.

"I can't identify any benefit to the detachment," Superintendent John Schultz said last week.

[...]

Last month, an outside financial consultant projected the district would lose $557,000 in revenue a year to let the neighborhood detach.

"That could be 10 teachers," Schultz said. "That really impacts the great programs we have."

The Parkwood Knolls neighborhood has an average home market value of $823,501. To make up for the loss of property taxes to the district, Schultz said it could increase property taxes by 1.5 percent to the remaining taxpayers, but that wouldn't cover the entire financial loss because the district would need levy approval from voters to increase taxes any further.
Now add race and much larger inequality. I mean, isn't it already a sore point, even with the weight of history and separate cities behind it. Annexation would reopen the issue at every border.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby Anondson » May 24th, 2016, 1:38 pm

That Parkwood Knolls attempt at severing from Hopkins SD to join Edina SD had many icky layers. The way it was promoted as unifying with the city it resides in, but the way boundaries were drawn to leave out a few apartments along 169 or the older "Hopkins-like" homes in the northwest corner of Edina. Sorry for that tangent...

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby talindsay » May 25th, 2016, 10:51 am

Open enrollment - not much reason for people to get so freaky about their districts. It's moot anyway though, city mergers aren't on the horizon.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby QuietBlue » December 20th, 2016, 7:47 am

Schools in South Minneapolis are getting more crowded, while those in other parts of the city are well below capacity:

http://www.startribune.com/success-sque ... 407526006/

Some crazy numbers in the article -- Washburn's student population has doubled in the past seven years, for example.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby EOst » December 20th, 2016, 8:48 am

MPD has been talking about changing Washburn'a boundaries to reduce overcrowding. But the pushback has been fierce.

Of course, this just papers over the larger issue, that district schools are wildly segregated and unequal. There's no reason at all that Jefferson, at 26th and Hennepin, should be 95%+ free and reduced lunch and 90% students of color (or 20% homeless/highly mobile). But that's the system we've created.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby QuietBlue » December 20th, 2016, 9:06 am

Yeah, now that you mention it, I remember reading about that. I'd expect there will be more of those fights in the future; when it comes down to it, parents in Minneapolis aren't all that different from parents in, say, Eden Prairie. But something will have to give at some point.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby Sacrelicio » December 20th, 2016, 9:43 am

talindsay wrote:Open enrollment - not much reason for people to get so freaky about their districts. It's moot anyway though, city mergers aren't on the horizon.
That and all of our school districts are pretty good in the region. This kind if stuff reeks of class and racial resentment.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby mattaudio » December 20th, 2016, 1:03 pm

EOst wrote:MPD has been talking about changing Washburn'a boundaries to reduce overcrowding. But the pushback has been fierce
Multiple families near me have moved literally blocks so they could be in the Hale/Field/Washburn zone rather than the Northrop/Roosevelt zone. We learned with Southwest that the answer isn't just to expand and expand, but to build an environment where more families will seek to improve their neighborhood schools. Now the same thing applies to Washburn - let's invest in Roosevelt and make it more desirable for families who would otherwise move or enroll their children elsewhere.

Likewise, another major space crunch is due to how much real estate MPS unloaded a decade ago. For example, the old Northrop school near me is now a Hiawatha Academies charter elementary and middle school. Without getting into the whole charter debate, one major critique I have is how the model is not supportive of the concept of walking/biking to close neighborhood schools. Most of the students are bused across the city to attend this school, whereas 10+ years ago this was a public school for kids in the neighborhood who could walk. And I've confirmed with their exec director that state charter school law prohibits admission preference based on proximity.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby billhelm » December 20th, 2016, 1:33 pm

mattaudio wrote:
EOst wrote:MPD has been talking about changing Washburn'a boundaries to reduce overcrowding. But the pushback has been fierce
Multiple families near me have moved literally blocks so they could be in the Hale/Field/Washburn zone rather than the Northrop/Roosevelt zone. We learned with Southwest that the answer isn't just to expand and expand, but to build an environment where more families will seek to improve their neighborhood schools. Now the same thing applies to Washburn - let's invest in Roosevelt and make it more desirable for families who would otherwise move or enroll their children elsewhere.

Likewise, another major space crunch is due to how much real estate MPS unloaded a decade ago. For example, the old Northrop school near me is now a Hiawatha Academies charter elementary and middle school. Without getting into the whole charter debate, one major critique I have is how the model is not supportive of the concept of walking/biking to close neighborhood schools. Most of the students are bused across the city to attend this school, whereas 10+ years ago this was a public school for kids in the neighborhood who could walk. And I've confirmed with their exec director that state charter school law prohibits admission preference based on proximity.
The worst part is the district just sold the old Northrop school property 3 years ago, and there were calls at the time to keep it on the books as another elementary school. It closed as an MPS school in 2005 though.

Hale is getting overcrowded and gets worse every year. Some parents are starting to turn away from it because of that. (all of the class sizes in the younger classes are pushing high 20s/low 30). Ton of parental involvement helps, and lots of aids and student teachers, but this is problem that is not going away anytime soon and will push through to field and Washburn even more.

This was a very quick change with Washburn (we questioned sending our kids there when we moved here), and if enough parents decide that Roosevelt is good enough, it may come around quickly.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby min-chi-cbus » December 20th, 2016, 4:32 pm

EOst wrote:MPD has been talking about changing Washburn'a boundaries to reduce overcrowding. But the pushback has been fierce.

Of course, this just papers over the larger issue, that district schools are wildly segregated and unequal. There's no reason at all that Jefferson, at 26th and Hennepin, should be 95%+ free and reduced lunch and 90% students of color (or 20% homeless/highly mobile). But that's the system we've created.
Weird, that's where I went to school for a bit as a kid, and I'm neither of those things (nor is my sister). I wonder how they decide which schools to segregate, and how?

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby seanrichardryan » December 20th, 2016, 4:46 pm

The fickleness of middle class white families when it comes to schools never ceases to amaze me.
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby Sacrelicio » December 20th, 2016, 5:04 pm

seanrichardryan wrote:The fickleness of middle class white families when it comes to schools never ceases to amaze me.
It's remarkable. I was a sub for MPS about 10 years ago, I went to almost every school in the system, and none of them were "bad." Some of them had some challenges but still had good kids and good teachers and caring, dedicated adults.

Funny anecdote, my girlfriend went to Minneapolis Public Schools, attended South High (which has many lower income and lower scoring kids) and she and her friends all went to top colleges. Her friend from childhood who went to the same high school was considering moving out of the city or driving her kid to a suburban school because she was worried about "school quality." Really puts a bad taste in my mouth.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby NickP » December 20th, 2016, 10:35 pm

^^^ I went to South too! What year did she graduate?


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