Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[twincitizen]

In essence, conservatism prevents the government from actually being consevative

[mattaudio]

If they were going to go underground, why not consider 6th or 7th for a tunnel alignment?

[UptownSport]

There is *no* reasonable transit option from [just about anywhere] to jobs [just about anywhere else]. That's why the Kenilworth alignment is so damn important.

All roads lead to Rome, if Rome is the city center.

Efficient transportation throughout that city first makes the most sense.
Both existing lines are a great start- The operational one has been wildly successful and there's no reason the other won't be.

It's not that an Uptown alignment for SW LRT that doesn't make sense, it's the SW alignment that doesn't make sense.

[David Greene]

There is *no* reasonable transit option from [just about anywhere] to jobs [just about anywhere else]. That's why the Kenilworth alignment is so damn important.

Please quote me accurately. I made a limited statement for a reason. That wealth and opportunity gap in the Twin Cities is absolutely shameful and we need to do something about it if we're going to prosper.

It's not that an Uptown alignment for SW LRT that doesn't make sense, it's the SW alignment that doesn't make sense.

No. It not only doesn't make sense to spend $300 million to keep black people cut off from jobs, it's immoral.

[twincitizen]

Some of the later 3C alts showed it going up 11th/12th Street to Royalston to make that same transfer point with all of the northside bus routes that the 3A alignment would. The Nicollet Mall option was a red herring. It was never going to happen because of the huge operational expense.

I honestly feel that if the regional plans had been further along (The Interchange, through-routing, etc), 3C (11th/12th St alts) could have stood a better chance. At least we wouldn't have wasted time considering a Nic Mall alignment and all the distraction that came along with it.

Plus, last time I checked, there are black people (in fact all kinds of people, and more of them) in Whittier and Lyndale too, in contrast with the complete lack of necessary population density at 21st, Penn, and Van White.

What part of this don't you get? http://netdensity.net/2012/10/17/2868/

[mattaudio]

So some longtime UrbanMSP lurker shows up just to troll about how Kenilworth will supposedly serve North Minneapolis.

No, you know what would serve the north side (and not the pockets of people who get development deals to build TOD in a former rail yard)....

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=7

[David Greene]

I am not in fact a longtime UrbanMSP lurker. I've been on here a day and a half. I have, however, been actively working on transit campaigns and issues for quite some time. I do know what I'm talking about.

Bottineau is not the same thing as Southwest. It serves a different type of job cluster. Both lines will help unemployed people in North Minneapolis.

Yes, Whittier is quite diverse. It also has excellent transit coverage. North Minneapolis does not.

And that development in Linden Yards is key to starting to revitalize the North Side. If we want to do real TOD in Minneapolis that is a prime piece of real estate. But for some reason, all the density advocates suddlenly are against doing density where people need economic development the most.

The 11th/12th alignment was always pure fantasy. Too long, way too expensive, too many historic property takings, etc.

It's not a zero-sum game. The Kenilworth aligment in no way precludes upgraded transit to and from Uptown. LRT just isn't appropriate there due to the numerous technical issues, not to mention the cost. A streetcar is entirely appropriate, just as it is on Broadway.

[MNdible]

David, didn't you get the memo? Anybody who doesn't think that SW LRT should run through Uptown is just a silly dunderhead who doesn't know their ass from their elbow.

[twincitizen]

Yes, Whittier is quite diverse. It also has excellent transit coverage. North Minneapolis does not.

Um, what? You have a problem with the uber-frequent 5 and 19? Sure, frequency on the 7, 14, and 22 could be better, but not every bus line in south is hi-frequency either. Not to mention the whole thing called population density (aka demand).

[David Greene]

Yes, Whittier is quite diverse. It also has excellent transit coverage. North Minneapolis does not.

Um, what? You have a problem with the uber-frequent 5 and 19? Sure, frequency on the 7, 14, and 22 could be better, but not every bus line in south is hi-frequency either. Not to mention the whole thing called population density (aka demand).

None of those routes provides a reasonable connection to the Southwest suburbs. Whittier/Uptown is at the transit nexus of Minneapolis. A hop on the 21, 53 or Midtown streetcar would make a nice connection to West Lake and off to Eden Prairie. Without the Kenilworth routing, there is no such option for the North Side.

[talindsay]

It's incredibly tiring the way Minnescraper / UrbanMSP discussions of Southwest always have to go back to "Only 3C made sense". 3C wasn't chosen. Get over it, and move on. I don't care if you liked it better. Personally, I happen to prefer transit projects that are politically feasible to ones that live in fantasy land and won't get built. Some of you may feel differently, and that's your prerogative. But in this case what could get funded and built was chosen instead of what some think would have been better, and that decision IS MADE and won't be revisited. So please, for the love of gods, stop with the 3C bs.

[seanrichardryan]

I second.

[mattaudio]

I think most people accept the substandard alignment that seems to be the go-forward, but that doesn't make it smart to accept the justifications for the Kenilworth alignment. This is the main reason why Transit for Livable Communities has lost all credibility.

- Infrastructure should follow demand, not the other way around. This is why it is irresponsible to build stops at 21st, Penn, and Van White in barren wastelands at the expense connecting an existing regional destination.
- Bottineau does allow North residents access to Southwest jobs, just like it allows access to St. Paul jobs... via a same platform transfer at the interchange.
- Unfortunately, the "feasible" alignments and projects are that way because we've set up a skewed way to measure cost effectiveness. It favors long commutes and avoiding regional destinations other than CBDs.

I shall continue with the 3C bs.

[mattaudio]

http://isaiahmn.org/newsite/wp-content/ ... ummary.pdf

Why doesn't the North side focus on investing in existing neighborhoods that have been destroyed by disinvestment and population loss? This agenda seems to compete with investment in the areas of North that actually need it.

David, you should come to the B.U.R.P. Happy Hour on the 18th... it would be good to have a discussion about this. I still don't really understand what justifies this but I'm open to understanding something new.

[David Greene]

Why doesn't the North side focus on investing in existing neighborhoods that have been destroyed by disinvestment and population loss?

Because the North Side is not a homogenous area. There are many neighborhoods there, each with their own priorities. Harrison is extremely well organized and politically savvy. They are getting things done.

This agenda seems to compete with investment in the areas of North that actually need it.

Again, it's not a zero-sum game. Things not happening everywhere is not a reason to delay something happening somewhere.

David, you should come to the B.U.R.P. Happy Hour on the 18th... it would be good to have a discussion about this. I still don't really understand what justifies this but I'm open to understanding something new.

Somehow I don't think that would be very productive.

[David Greene]

Infrastructure should follow demand, not the other way around. This is why it is irresponsible to build stops at 21st, Penn, and Van White in barren wastelands at the expense connecting an existing regional destination.

But you don't seem to understand that Uptown *is already connected.* An LRT would at best provide marginally better service than already exists, it would cost a ton and it would destroy some local businesses.

For what? What is the big advantage to having SW LRT go through Uptown? Simply serving a population is not enough. That population is already served *very* well.

As for development, transportation is not really about moving people from point A to point B. It's about connecting people and communities. It's also about developing those communities in sustainable, healthy ways.

Bottineau does allow North residents access to Southwest jobs, just like it allows access to St. Paul jobs... via a same platform transfer at the interchange.

First off, Bottineau is a long time coming. But even if it were here today, keep in mind that it's relatively difficult for someone in near north to get downtown. Bus frequencies are low. And why should they have to go downtown at all? After all, we could make the exact same argument about Uptown people getting out to the southwest suburbs. Except they won't even have to go downtown.

Unfortunately, the "feasible" alignments and projects are that way because we've set up a skewed way to measure cost effectiveness.

I certainly have my objections to the way transit projects are treated at the federal level. That's why we worked hard to change how the CEI is used.

But this argument is really just a form of _ad_hominem_, attacking the methodology rather than talking about the resulting plan. I know that you and others talk about the plan, I'm simply saying that this particular argument doesn't hold water.

[PhilmerPhil]

David, you should come to the B.U.R.P. Happy Hour on the 18th... it would be good to have a discussion about this. I still don't really understand what justifies this but I'm open to understanding something new.

Just to clarify, the UrbanMSP Happy Hour, which is on the 18th, is a separate event from the B.U.R.P. Happy Hours--although there are probably overlaps with attendees and topics of discussion. (Not the first time I have seen the two of them used interchangeably here.)

[UptownSport]

Basically what you're saying is:

I'd demand light rail to go directly from my neighborhood to where I want to go, and if it doesn't you're racist.

The though process is entertaining

[twincitizen]

Yes, it is interesting that David thinks NoMi "deserves" a direct connection to the southwest suburbs, while Uptown does not, despite actual geographic proximity. Are the working class neighborhoods in southern Anoka County similarly entitled to a direct LRT connection to jobs in Eagan? And the assertion that Uptown already has lots of (slow) buses, therefore doesn't deserve to be connected to the regional transit system...is just utterly ridiculous.

[David Greene]

Yes, it is interesting that David thinks NoMi "deserves" a connection to the southwest suburbs, while Uptown does not, despite actual geographic proximity. And the assertion that Uptown already has lots of (slow) buses, therefore doesn't deserve to be connected to the regional transit system...is just utterly ridiculous.

Oh come on. You think a bus trip to West Lake is more burdensome than not having any reasonable connection at all? SW LRT is in fact serving Uptown at the West Lake station.

Basically what you're saying is:

I'd demand light rail to go directly from my neighborhood to where I want to go, and if it doesn't you're racist.

I said no such thing and I don't care about anyone's individual bigotry one bit. But I do, in fact, care deeply about institutional racism.

No one has yet answered my question of _why_ an Uptown alignment for SW LRT is so important. I have said very clearly why a Kenilworth alignment is important but all I ever hear about Uptown is, "that's where the people are," which is on one hand insulting, as if no one lives in North Minneapolis and on the other hand completely avoids the issue of transportation access.